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Episode 55: A GAME OF THRONES, CATELYN VIII: "Mother and Son" Show Notes!
🕑 Added 2019-03-25 14:00:02 +0000 UTCHello and welcome to the Not A Cast … podcast: the one true chapter-by-chapter podcast going through A Song of Ice and Fire one chapter a week. I’m one of your hosts Jeff better known as BryndenBFish.
And I’m your other host Emmett, better known as PoorQuentyn.
Welcome to the fifty-fifth episode of the Not A Cast, entitled: “Mother and Son: An Analysis of AGOT, Catelyn VIII” in which Catelyn returns to the North to find her red-faced squalling infant firstborn all grown up and leading an army.
This episode is brought to you by our Small Council: Hand of the King WolfmanZack, Grand Maester Timothy W, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Mark N. Lord Travis, Master of Ships and Warden of the Waves, Ser Keith J, Master of Whisperers, Lord Philip the Merciful, Master of Laws, Jancy O, Lady Commander of the Night’s Watch, Lord Gene Master of Coin, Archmaester June, Healer of the Lesser Poxes, Ragged Michael, Warden of the North, Nelson the Hammer, Prince of Dragonstone, Scarlett the Other Red Woman and Mistress of Whisperers, Lord Baby the Onion Baby, and Lord Blackheart the Defiant, Master of Zorse! Thank you councillors very much!
Spoiler warning: All published books - 5 novels, 3 Dunk and Egg novellas, histories, interviews, TWOW sample chapters, as well as Game of Thrones the TV show. Anything and everything!
Question
Ser Matt K, a Sworn Sword asks:
Guys love the podcast and had a question about the Meera theory that Chloe hinted at. Google searches just give results for and against the Meera & Jon twin theories. Is the theory more that Mrs. Reed = Ashara and it was more a game of medieval telephone Arthur->Ashara->Howland->Ned on how Ned knew where to find Lyana so quick?
Synopsis
Through the fog, Catelyn Stark, Brynden Tully and her Manderly entourage can just make out the Stark banner high atop Moat Cailin: a direwolf of House Stark, grey upon its icy field. Catelyn thanks the gods, thinking that they are good (They’re not).
“They await our coming, my lady,” Ser Wylis Manderly said, “as my lord father swore they would.”
Let us not keep them waiting any longer, ser, the Blackfish replies.
The put their spurs into their horses, and they’re off to the castle. Behind them, fifteen hundred Manderly soldiers: knights, armored lances, swordsman, freeriders, spears, pikes and tridents follow. And what of Lord Wyman Manderly, him of the future The North Remembers fame? Well, he stayed behind at White Harbor. He’s too old and fat to make this journey and fight in this war. So, instead, he’s sent his two “boys” to escort Catelyn to Moat Cailin.
But they weren’t exactly “boys.” Catelyn notes that Wylis and Wendel were older than she was, and they were only a hair less obese than their father. They had walrus mustaches, balding heads, big bellies and clothing that always had food stains on them, but they had differences too. Wylis was quiet while Wendel was loud. Catelyn liked them though. They’d gotten her to Robb after all.
As Catelyn & company approach, Moat Cailin, Catelyn takes pride in the fact that Robb had set scouts to the east. While the Lannisters would probably come from the south, it was good that Robb was being careful:
My son is leading a host to war, she thought, still only half believing it.
Fear joins with Catelyn’s pride at Robb. A year ago, he had been a boy. And now? Now he was going to war.
Outriders spot the Manderly banners, and they bring the Manderly army to dry high ground outside of Moat Cailin to set up camp while Ser Wendel escorts Catelyn and Brynden towards the castle itself. As Catelyn comes closer to Moat Cailin itself, Catelyn sees the markings of an army at the site: food and smoky fires and Lord Hornwood’s orange battle tent.
And then through the mists, she sees the ruins of what remains of Moat Cailin. Black basalt blocks were scattered and sinking into the mud, the wooden red keep had evaporated into history. But though much was broken and gone, there remained the three towers of the great stronghold of the First Men. But originally, there had been twenty.
Catelyn looks up at the Gatehouse Tower, and notes that it’s strong with even a bit of wall running off its flanks. Over at the Drunkard’s tower, where the walls had come together over a bog, the tower leaned over as if, in Catelyn’s wonderful parlance, like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And finally at the Children’s Tower, where legends say (and it’s just a legend, guys! Ha-ha, ha, oh god) the Children of the Forest called upon their god to bring the hammer down onto the waters.
It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog.
Ser Brynden Tully looks at the ruins and begins to say something negative about the castle before Catelyn stops him. This castle is a deathtrap. Ned had told her. The towers have a view of the entire causeway leading north, and armies can’t move through the bogs. They have quicksand and snakes in them. Any army would have to wade through waist-deep black mud, climb walls while exposed to arrow fire. Oh, and also ghosts walk through the castle at night. Death trap? Yessir.
Catelyn espies the banners at each of the towers. Karstarks at the Drunkard’s Tower, Umbers at the Children’s Tower. And the Gatehouse Tower? There flies the direwolf of House Stark. She makes her way towards that tower, enters and finds Robb among the lords in council, a pile of maps and paper scattered in front of him.
At first Robb doesn’t notice Catelyn, but Grey Wind catches her in his sight, and the lords grow silent around Robb, and then Robb sees her.
Mother! he says, his voice thick with emotion.
And though Catelyn wants to just run up and grab him, she can’t. She knows that if she takes on the mother role, she’ll shame her son in front of his lords. And her son must never look weak or vulnerable in front of his lords bannermen. So, Catelyn stays to the side of the room, away from him. But when Ghost comes over, Catelyn can’t help but comment on Robb:
You’ve grown a beard. I like it. It makes you look like my brother Edmure.
Robb rubs his jaw all awkward, and ah, yes. I know that feeling Robb.
Well, one by one, the northern lords bannermen come to greet Catelyn. Theon is the last. He saunters over like a LOTR roleplayer saying that he hadn’t expected to see her here. I had not thought to be here, Catelyn replies. She’d come by way of White Harbor and learned from Wyman Manderly that Robb had called the banners. She’s brought the Wyman host on over along with Wyman’s sons and Ser Brynden Tully.
The Blackfish. Thank you for joining us, ser. We need men of your courage.
And thus begins my favorite relationship: Brynden Tully and Robb Stark’s brotherhood on the battlefield.
But wait, where’s Ser Rodrik? Ah, yes. He’s on up to Winterfell where he’ll be safe and sound from the war, right Emmett? Sob. Greatjon puts in that they’ll beat the piss out of the Lannisters and free Ned. But then Roose Bolton has a question:
It is is said that you hold Lord Tywin’s dwarf son as captive. Have you brought him to us? I vow, we should make good use of such a hostage.
And of course, Roose says this in his creepy, small voice. Catelyn has to admit that she doesn’t hold Tyrion any more. Her fool of a sister had made sure that he was no longer their prisoner. Catelyn realizes that she shouldn’t be speaking with such contempt about her sister, but she’s pretty fucking pissed at Lysa. Cat had offered to foster Sweetrobin at Winterfell, but Lysa had gone into a rage and threatened to toss Catelyn out of the moon door if she tried. And after that, there had been no more words between the sisters.
When the lords press her for more information, Catelyn demurs and asks to speak with Robb alone. And yes, that means you, Theon. Scoot your future traitorous ass on out of the room. Thanks. Bye.
Alone now with Robb, she comments on his beard again, comparing Robb growing a beard at sixteen to Edmure. But Robb is fifteen. And he’s leading a host into battle. Catelyn is a bit scared.
There was no one else, Robb says all Ned-like.
No one? Well, hell, there’s Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, Greatjon Umber, Helman Tallhart. Anyone of them would march. Shit, even Theon would have gone had you ordered him.
They are not Starks, Robb says.
They are men, Catelyn replies.
And then Catelyn sees anger in Robb’s eyes, but it quickly passes. He knows he’s just a kid. Are you sending me back to Winterfell? Let me just pause for a second.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Okay, no more emotions. Catelyn says that she should send Robb back, but she can’t now. Cat’s out of the bag, and now you have to lead. If you turn around now, these men will never respect you, and you need them to respect you, even fear you. She wants to keep Robb safe, but she can’t do that now. He has to see this thing through.
Robb thanks Catelyn, all relieved. But then Catelyn talks about Robb as a baby, and he gets uncomfortable again. C’MON MOM! So, he shifts the topic to Ned. Has she heard about him? Yes, she has. Wyman told her at White Harbor. Robb proceeds to show Catelyn the letter from Sansa/Cersei, and Catelyn immediately knows that there’s a threat in the letter. There’s also no mention of Arya. Robb winces, talking about how he had hoped that he could trade Tyrion for Sansa, but that’s all gone now. Also, mom, what’s up with the Vale? Are they going to come help? How many men will they send?
Only one. The best of them. My uncle, but Brynden Blackfish was a Tully first. My sister is not about to stir beyond her Bloody Gate.
Robb is flummoxed. What’s he going to do. Sure, he’s got an 18K strong army, but he has no idea of how to lead these men.
What are you so afraid of, Robb?
Well, Robb is afraid that even if they win, the Lannisters will murder Sansa and Ned, won’t they? Maybe. Maybe not. But you can’t go to King’s Landing to swear fealty to those bastards. You’re going to lose the respect of your lords.
Our best hope, our only true hope is that you can defeat the foe in the field. If you should chance to take Lord Tywin or the Kingslayer captive, why then a trade might very well be possible.
But that’s not all, Robb. As long as you’re out here doing God’s work in the field, Ned and Sansa will be safe. The Lannisters will be forced to make peace if you are victorious in battle.
And if the fighting goes badly?
Robb, I will not soften the truth for you. If you lose, there is no hope for any of us. They say there is naught but stone at the heart of Casterly Rock. Remember the fate of Rhaegar’s children.
Catelyn sees that Robb is kinda scared, but there’s something else there too: strength.
Then I will not lose.
Good on ya, kid. And y’know what, Robb? That’s exactly what you’re going to do: never lose a battle. As for the war though … Sigh.
Catelyn asks Robb to recount what’s going on the Riverlands, and it’s not good. Jaime’s crushed Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth. Piper was falling back to Riverrun, but Tywin was leading another Lannister army up from the south. Ned had sent out some southron lord Erik or Derik or something, but those men had been ambushed at the Mummer’s Ford, and a lot of them had been killed. No one knows what’s happen to good lord Derik in the meantime, but the kingsroad was closed to the south. Tywin’s heading towards Harrenhal, doing his usual shittery and burning out the peasants as he marches north.
Catelyn thinks that this is real bad news. So, she asks Robb if he hopes Tywin comes all the way up to Moat Cailin. Perhaps. Robb’s ordered Howland motherfucking Reed to hold the Neck for a time, but he and his lords bannermen think that Tywin won’t approach Moat Cailin. Instead, they’ll march parallel to the Trident. The northmen will need to meet the Lannister army coming south.
Well, that chills the fuck out of Catelyn’s heart. She doesn’t think it’s wise to march on Tywin or Jaime. They’re both seasoned battle commanders. Lol, no they’re not. But that’s okay, Catelyn.
Catelyn urges Robb to hold out here, but Robb ain’t about that. They can’t live off this land. They’re going to march. Catelyn knows that these are the words of his lords bannermen, but she knows they ain’t exactly wrong. The army that Robb has isn’t some professional army that you’d find in the Free Cities. It’s mostly smallfolk. Sure, they’d march, but they can’t sustain a long-term campaign. They have to get home to the fields and lakes and forests to bring in the harvest.
So, where is Robb going to march them to? Well, the Greatjon is all about marching on Tywin with a surprise attack, but the Karstarks and Glovers are more of a mind to join up with the Riverlanders and take on Jaime. But they have to hope Riverrun can hold out from Jaime’s siege. So, Robb is uncertain what to do.
Be certain or go home and take up that wooden sword again. You cannot afford to seem indecisive in front of men like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark. Make no mistake, Robb, these men are your bannermen, not your friends. You named yourself battle commander. Command!
Hell yeah, Catelyn. Robb is shocked, but agrees. So, Catelyn urges him to relook his options and command the shit out of this war. So, Robb talks it out. He thinks that both plans are fine and all, but the best plan is probably to go for Jaime. The Kingslayer has more men in the field, but a surprise attack against Jaime might catch him and his army unawares. But Tywin would not be so easily surprised.
Catelyn says yeah, nice call, Robb. Tell me more. Well, Robb will leave a small force to hold Moat Cailin, and then march down the rest of the Neck, split his forces, then Tywin will come north as Robb dispatches one army towards Riverrun and have a second army moving along the west bank of the Trident. And if Tywin comes north, then he’ll have a whole river between him and Jaime. Robb will just need to get through the Twins and Walder Frey, and this plan will go well. Walder’s Hoster Tully’s bannermen, right?
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. About that. Walder Frey is … how to put this delicately? A motherfucking piece of shit. Hoster never trusted him. And neither should Robb. Okay, Robb says. He won’t trust Walder. Oh boy. Cue the start of our Red Wedding foreshadowing.
Well, Catelyn is impressed with Robb, thinking that he looks like a Tully yet thought like Ned. So, Robb, which army will you command? He’s going with the cavalry. And who’s going south to confront Tywin? Ah, yes. The Greatjon will go south! He wants to kick some Tywin ass, take some names and write his story with Lannister blood.
Oooh. Yeah. About that. (Lumbergh Voice) Maybe Greatjon isn’t the best pick. Sure, he’s fearless, but that’s different from being brave. Robb needs to put someone with cold cunning in charge of the battle against Tywin. How about Roose Bolton?
Roose Bolton, Robb said at once. That man scares me.
Let’s hope he scares the shit out of Tywin too, Robb. But enough about war planning. We gotta get you home, Catelyn. Back to Winterfell. Right? Wrong.
I am not going to Winterfell, she heard herself say, surprised at the sudden rush of tears that blurred her vision. My father may be dying behind the walls of Riverrun. My brother is surrounded by foes. I must go to them.
And that is AGOT, Catelyn VIII. At last, Emmett. AT LAST. We are getting into some war shit. I cannot believe I get to do the war shit with you, my friend. I am honored. And this chapter? I gotta admit: all the architecture of Moat Cailin is interesting -- albeit mildly for me. But all that war shit? YEAH. WAR SHIT. GIVE ME THE WAR SHIT PLANNING BABY.
… Did I mention in another life I worked in a operational planning cell for information operations warfare? The less said, the less bored.
Anyways, love this chapter. What’d you think, man?
Depth
I know we’ve been saying this a lot lately, but it feels like forever since we had a Catelyn chapter to sink our teeth into! GRRM had to ramp up the plot in King’s Landing and show us the reaction in Winterfell before bringing Cat back in, because here she takes over for Bran as our POV on Robb’s campaign. She’ll play that role for the rest of the book and the beginning of the next one, heading south as he heads west for most of ACOK before resuming that role in ASOS. And as with Bran VI, this is a very rich chapter for the political and military side of things, as Robb develops his strategy to take on the Lannisters and Catelyn advises him. But what really makes this chapter special for me is that it cements the relationship between Catelyn and Robb, which is one of my favorites in the series. #1 is Stannis-Jon, #2 is Stannis-Davos, and this is #3. Favorite relationship, non-Stannis category!
- Introducing the Manderlys
- A quick note at the beginning in which we meet the Manderlys, among the most powerful and significant lesser houses in Westeros
- They feel almost like cartoon characters at this point, all bald heads and walrus mustaches, with none of the gravitas they’ll take on as a family in ADWD
- But we know they run a city, and we know Ned wanted to see to its defenses, and we know the other Northerners were waiting on them
- Later on, we learn that Catelyn has been thoroughly spurned by Lysa
- Robb takes it hard, as he should, because the loss of the Knights of the Vale has a huge impact on his story going forward
- So as with Bran VI, the Starks are caught between power and destruction, desperate hope and rising fear, and Catelyn herself lurches between these poles
- We’re getting more and more men, but is it enough? Robb’s learned so much from Ned, but will it be enough?
- Introducing Moat Cailin
- Moat Cailin is a distinctive setting upon which GRRM lingers
- It’s a little forced that the Blackfish, one of the finest military minds of his generation, doesn’t know how Moat Cailin works, but it works for exposition
- On one level, the Moat provides a take on military strength different from the overwhelming presence of something like the Wall or the Rock
- Its strengths are environmental, fitting the image of the North as a distinct territory
- You can already see GRRM setting up the newly independent North by spending a while introducing us to the fortress that made the old one possible!
- On the other hand, that the Moat is a ruin speaks to the transitory nature of all these kingdoms, much like Tristifer’s tomb in ASOS Catelyn V or the Sorrows in ADWD Tyrion V
- The Children have vanished, the Others are a myth, and so the Moat is a testament to the magical world left behind
- This suggests that Robb’s kingdom, too, will soon be a haunted ruin
- Reunion
- I absolutely love how GRRM stages this, it’s a perfect contrast to Bran VI
- In that chapter, Grey Wind tore a man’s fingers off, embodying the aggressive side of House Stark
- Here, though, he sees Catelyn first and goes over to offer and receive affection
- He is Robb’s heart, that which he cannot express in front of his bannermen
- The wolf acts as the go-between for the overwhelming feelings both experience
- But within that love is worry and fear, crystallized in the question of Robb’s age
- Catelyn is restraining her terror about what’s happened to her husband and daughters down in the capital, but it comes out regarding Robb
- She is caught in between pride in him stepping up (and hope that he can save the day) and fear that he’s too young and green (and so won’t be able to save the day)
- Right off the bat, she’s pointing out how young he is:
- “Edmure was sixteen when he grew his first whiskers.”
“I will be sixteen soon enough,” Robb said.
“And you are fifteen now. Fifteen, and leading a host to battle. Can you understand why I might fear, Robb?”
- “Edmure was sixteen when he grew his first whiskers.”
- He falls back on Stark identity, the core of Northern politics…
- “They are not Starks”
- ...but much like Jon, he’s open to critique
- “I know,” he said, abashed. “Are you . . . are you sending me back to Winterfell?”
- That also betrays his own inner fears that he’s not going to be able to step up, a vulnerability we saw in flashes in Bran’s POV
- This is Robb the Lord giving way to Robb the boy, the id we saw in Rickon
- And it’s all the more moving because it’s in Catelyn’s eyes
- You can see the conflict in her recognizing that sending Robb home will damage his rep permanently, but also thinking of him as her pure sweet lil babby
- My absolute favorite moment in the chapter is this:
- He looked to her, his eyes shining, the proud young lord melted away in an instant, and quick as that he was a child again, a fifteen-year-old boy looking to his mother for answers.
It would not do.
- He looked to her, his eyes shining, the proud young lord melted away in an instant, and quick as that he was a child again, a fifteen-year-old boy looking to his mother for answers.
- The crux of this chapter is that Catelyn wants to be able to recede to childhood/innocence/Winterfell with Robb, but she cannot
- She knows she has to let him grow up, she knows she has to help him do it, and at chapter’s end, she makes the decision to go with him as he does it
- In a way, she’s making the inverse journey she made after Robert’s Rebellion
- Then, she came north a young woman with her infant son; now she returns in middle age with her son on the cusp of adulthood
- She lays out the chances and consequences for him, and helps him embrace adulthood, all that from which she’d like to shield him
- As the discussion continues, she tells him he has to be certain or “go home and take up that wooden sword again,” while thinking if only...
- In this way, she is precisely the opposite of how Lysa handled Sweetrobin
- And at chapter’s end, she makes the leap herself, and finds her eyes blurred with tears at last
- In a way this whole chapter is about holding back tears, about staying strong, presenting an image, even as your heart quakes inside you
- So when I think of Catelyn VIII, I think of those moist eyes: Robb’s eyes shining with youth, Catelyn’s eyes blurring with the tears of adulthood
- Battle plans
- Alright. It’s time for me to let my inner war-nerd have its day. Skip on ahead if you don’t want to get your war shit on, because I’m riding dirty on this.
- To best analyze Robb Stark’s military situation and his formation of battle plans, I’ve elected to utilize the United States Military Decision Making Process (MDMP) as a means of hopefully simplifying what Robb is working with here.
- Receipt of Mission
- Very simply: Robb’s mission is to win against the Lannisters and to take Jaime or Tywin prisoner as Catelyn says: Our best hope, our only true hope, is that you can defeat the foe in the field. If you should chance to take Lord Tywin or the Kingslayer captive, why then a trade might very well be possible
- If Robb wins, he’ll demonstrate his prowess to his lords, and if he takes Jaime or Tywin captive, he can trade them for Ned and Sansa.
- Mission Analysis
- Robb’s position is tenuous. In terms of enemies in the field, he has two Lannister armies. Jaime’s army is southwest of Moat Cailin besieging Riverrun, Tywin’s army is slowly marching north through Harrenhal. Both Lannister armies outnumber Robb’s army of northmen with Jaime’s army slightly smaller, and Tywin’s army both larger and having higher numbers of heavy horse. The Green Fork separates both Lannister armies
- So, what are Robb and Catelyn’s understanding of what the Lannisters are doing here?
- Seemingly, the Lannister objective is Riverrun and the neutralization of the Riverlands.
- Tywin’s army acts as bait to lure Robb away from the main attack. (This gets a nice confirmation in the next chapter)
- In terms of friendly forces, Robb has his 18,000 men, his main potential allies are the surviving riverlords and the remnants of their hosts -- most of them besieged at Riverrun. He’s also heard about Beric Dondarrion’s force in the Lannister rear but believes them to be scattered and rendered non mission capable due to sustained losses at the Mummer’s Ford.
- Robb’s army can hold Moat Cailin, but it’s not a standing field army. Wutdo?
- Course of Action Development
- COA 1: Hold Moat Cailin against the Lannister advance (Catelyn’s COA)
- COA 2: Advance south down the kingsroad and meet Tywin Lannister’s army in battle, utilizing a surprise attack or flank Tywin’s army and attack from the rear (Greatjon Umber’s COA)
- COA 3: March southwest to the Twins, continue meet Jaime’s army besieging Riverrun (Galbart Glover and Rickard Karstark’s COA)
- Course of Action Analysis
- The advantage of COA 1 is that Moat Cailin is impenetrable from the south. However, its disadvantages are numerous. Robb makes the point that Tywin won’t advance on Moat Cailin but work to neutralize the riverlords east of the Green Fork of the Trident while Jaime works to take Riverrun. Meanwhile, Robb’s army can’t decamp at Moat Cailin for long as the land can’t sustain the northern army for long.
- COA 2 would have the advantage of potentially catching Tywin’s larger army unawares and possibly capturing Tywin in battle. The disadvantage is that Tywin is a more canny commander, has a larger army and has more heavy horse available. Also unknown to Robb is that Tywin has Addam Marbrand shadowing Robb’s moves and reporting back to Tywin. So, any march south on Tywin would have some advance warning. Plus, Robb notes that any flanking movement to Tywin’s east would expose him to Jaime’s army that could march down from Riverrun.
- COA 3 has advantage in that Jaime’s army is smaller, and Jaime is less experienced a commander than Tywin. However, marching towards Riverrun leaves Moat Cailin vulnerable to Tywin’s movement. Plus, Tywin could wheel his army back around to the south and force march along the west bank of the Trident.
- Course of Action Comparison
- I’ll let Robb Stark do the talking on this:
"Both plans have virtues, but . . . look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin's host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him . . . by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised."
- I’ll let Robb Stark do the talking on this:
- Course of Action Approval
- So, now with all the differing plans in place, what’s Robb Stark’s actual plan? Well, it’s mix of COAs 1-3
- "I'd leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway," he said, "but once we're below the Neck, I'd split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins." He pointed. "When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun."
- But who will command each element?
- Robb will command the horse
- Greatjon will command the foot or will he!?
- Catelyn advises Robb to give the command to someone more cunning and cold -- Roose Bolton. Was this a mistake?
- So, now with all the differing plans in place, what’s Robb Stark’s actual plan? Well, it’s mix of COAs 1-3
- Orders Production, Dissemination and Transition
- Here’s my question RE the battle plans--when the Greatjon says that he wants to not only take the battle to Tywin but then proceed on to KL, is he just blustering?
- It fits the north-uber-alles perspective he presents at Robb’s crowning, given that this strategy would involve abandoning Edmure and the other riverlords
- So does the Greatjon already have some radical political realignment in mind, if not precisely King Robb of the North and Riverlands?
Foreshadowing/Groundwork
Catelyn’s line “I had not thought to be here” gets a repeat in the Stannis/Renly parlay after Stannis is surprised that Catelyn is present. I like the line, speaks to Catelyn’s constant fish out of water experience in the narrative -- from party leader to political counselor to diplomat, GRRM takes Catelyn on a journey of the unexpected.
Don’t trust the Freys
Of course, so much of this chapter is echoed in our return to Moat Cailin via Theon in ADWD. GRRM definitely didn’t have the plot details for that worked out, but the mood of that Theon chapter draws naturally on this one--the jaundiced eye, the sense of loss inherent in the fortress
Something, something oily black stones/black basalt blocks
Theory/Discussion
Did Robb screw up by making Roose his infantry commander?
- We have to try and avoid presentism with discussions like this
- Roose made damn sure that neither Ned nor Rickard had reason to complain of him
- So while he creeps everyone out and Bolton history is full of gory details, there’s no real warning signs as of yet that Robb should be heeding
- The calculation that you need someone with “cold cunning” seems temperamentally sound, the Greatjon could certainly rush in heedless
- On the other hand (and I’ll put this to you, good ser) is it a realistic threat assessment on Robb’s part that Tywin might decide to wade through the Neck and attack the North?
- Regardless, while there were certainly other good options (Robett Glover for one, who ends up as Roose’s second-in-command before being stabbed in the back at Duskendale), I don’t think this error reflects poorly on Robb’s judgment
Conclusion
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