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Episode 33: A GAME OF THRONES, EDDARD VIII: "You Can’t Fire Me, I Quit: An Analysis of AGOT, Eddard VIII” SHOW NOTES!
🕑 Added 2018-10-01 14:01:00 +0000 UTC Hello and welcome to the Not A Cast … podcast: the one true chapter-by-chapter podcast going through A Song of Ice and Fire one chapter a week. I’m one of your hosts Jeff better known as BryndenBFish.And I’m your other host Emmett, better known as PoorQuentyn.
Welcome to our thirty-third episode of the Not A Cast entitled: “You Can’t Fire Me, I Quit: An Analysis of AGOT, Eddard VIII,” in which Ned Stark throws his Hand pin in Robert’s face and allllllllmost makes it out of town with his head on his shoulders. This episode is brought to you all by our Lords Commander Mark N, Timothy W, Hayden J and WolfmanZack. Thank you, gentlemen!
Spoiler warning: All published books - 5 novels, 3 Dunk and Egg novellas, histories, interviews, TWOW sample chapters, as well as Game of Thrones the TV show. Anything and everything!
Question
Ser Thomas H asks:
I have a question for the two of you, now I’m not sure if you guys are into animation whether it be Pixar or Anime but, As an avid ASOIAF and Animation fan I was curious if you guys have ever wondered if The ASOIAF books would make a good animated series or even movie. If it was adapted into animation would you prefer a movie or series and would you have any talent behind the series that you would want attached to it. I’d personally prefer if the creators behind Avatar the Last Airbender. Again thanks for the Podcast and keep up the great work.
Sincerely your Sworn Sword Thomas H.
Reminder about “Stump the Chumps Part 1” patreon-only episode
Synopsis
Ned Stark begs that Robert doesn’t murder the bejesus out of children. The whore is pregnant, Robert yells smashing his fist against the table. Robert had warned Ned about all this back in Eddard II. He wants Daenerys, her child and Viserys all killed ASAP, and he’s not about to take no for an answer.
Did I mention that this is all in front of the small council? Well, it is. And those weasels, traitors and sycophants are all trying their best to stay low to the ground. Robert yells about an axe being over this head, and Ned’s all What fucking axe, dude? And besides, we don’t know if it’s true.
Oh, it’s true Varys breaks in. Varys doesn’t bring lies to the king. Hahahahahaha. Okay. Sure. But at least this time Varys isn’t lying. He’d gotten the info via that traitorous, slaving, creeping Jorah Mormont. And his information is good as gold. But Ned still doesn’t care. If it’s not true, no one needs to worry. If Dany births a daughter, then they’re good. If the child dies in infancy, then nothing. And even if it’s a boy, the Dothraki will never cross the poison water. C’mon, Robert. You’re being a dick.
Robert is still angry and drunk. And would a drunk, angry man back down from being challenged? Nope. They’re not kids. They’re dragonspawn. And dragonspawn must be put down. But Ned is a stubborn hero:
Even Aegon did no conquering until after he was weaned.
Add frustration into Robert’s sunny outlook. He orders his counselors to talk some damn sense into Ned Stark. Varys gives his spiel about doing evil for the good of many. Renly tells Ned that they should have had them all killed long ago, but they were prevented by Jon Arryn’s mistake of mercy.
Yeah. That wasn’t a mistake, Ned counters. They could even look to the example of someone in this very room. Ser Barristan fought for the Targaryens. And Robert, didn’t you say that you won’t kill a man for loyalty or for fighting well? Uh, yeah. He did say that, but it’s not the same. Barristan was a knight of the Kingsguard. But Ned’s beyond reason. And he gives the truth to Robert as a result:
Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl. Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?
Uh, that’s not Bob’s POV. They went to war to put an end to Targaryens according to him. Oh yeah? Well, try this on for size: you weren’t afraid of Rhaegar, but you’re petrified of an unborn child. How cool are you now, Robert?
Well, this goes over about as well as you’d imagine. Robert threatens Ned, asking if he’s forgotten who’s king.
No, your Grace. Have you?
Man, Ned’s not known for the sick burns, but he is piling them on here. But Robert’s done with talking. He tells his counselors to, again, tell Ned what’s what. They all in turn do their things: Barristan says there’s no honor in killing people in the womb and that he stands with Ned. Good job, Barry. You get a cookie. Renly does his She must be killed terrorist routine. Varys is sadly in favor. Pycelle brings up the point about one death to save tens of thousands of lives. Littlefinger is a fucking asshole and jokes about kissing ugly women and how you just need to close your eyes and get on with it.
A kiss? Barristan is rightfully aghast. A steel kiss, Littlefinger replies.
But that’s it. The final tally is Barristan and Ned vs everyone else. But who’s going to kill her? How about Jorah? Well, he wants a pardon, Varys explains. But having Jorah do it would be an instant death sentence for him. No way. But poison … The tears of Lys could work, and no one would be the wiser for it.
Pycelle suddenly wakes up and looks suspiciously at Varys. Robert isn’t happy about using poison either. It’s a coward’s weapon. But Ned’s had enough of this shit. Fuck this. Fuck that. And fuck you, Robert. Do it yourself. You owe her that much, you fucking coward.
Well, Bob was angry before, but now he’s angry. He burst out of his chair, furious at Ned and that his wine cup is empty. Just have it done! Sure, Ned says. But I’m not going to part of this. He takes his Hand clasp off his cloak and lays it on the table in front of Robert saddened by the man Robert had become. I thought we had made a nobler king.
Robert screams at Ned to get the fuck out and run back to Winterfell before he has Ned’s head on a spike. Ned bows, turns and walks out wordless. He overhears the counselors talk about the Faceless Men (our first reference to them) and how they could kill Dany, but Littlefinger challenges that their methods are super expensive -- and that’s only for killing a merchant. Who’s to say what it would cost to kill a princess?
But the doors close behind Ned, and Ned is off to get the fuck out of King’s Landing -- especially before Robert finds out about Catelyn’s abduction of Tyrion. He thinks Robert wouldn’t actually hurt him or the kids, but then again, Robert was angry enough about Rhaegar to order the death of his still-living sibling just now. He gives orders to his guards that he’ll take Arya and Sansa with him back to Winterfell. And tell no one.
As his men make their preparations to depart, Robert has the opportunity to think. He’s cool with getting back to Winterfell and Catelyn. Maybe he’ll even make a new son with Catelyn. But leaving wasn’t all good. The realm was in bad shape with Robert and his counselors. And there was still that matter of who actually murdered Jon Arryn. He could sense the truth nearby, but he hadn’t quite sighted it.
Ned thinks back to the trip back to Winterfell and thinks a sea voyage might be best. Besides, he could stop by Dragonstone and ask Stannis what was up. Pycelle had sent ravens to Dragonstone, but no response was forthcoming from Stannis. But even if he has the truth, what then? Should he hide it? It might be that the truth might be more dangerous than keeping secrets.
And then Ned’s back to thinking about the knife. Was it really Tyrion’s knife? Why would he want him dead? Was Robert a part of it? So many questions and so few answers.
As Ned gives orders to find a fast ship, a visitor arrives begging audience. It’s Littlefinger. And though Ned initially wants to turn him away, he allows him entrance. Littlefinger walks in like he owns the place and tells Ned that he’s enroute to Lady Tanda’s table as she wishes to marry her daughter to him. But Ned doesn’t give a shit about that. Why are you here? Well, Littlefinger tells Ned that he convinced Robert not to hire the Faceless Men to kill Daenerys. Varys will see to it instead. And the person who does the deed will become a lord.
Ned is correctly outraged, but Littlefinger shrugs him off. Some sellsword will try it and fuck it up, but then Ned will get what he wanted: Dany surviving. Ned is unamused:
You sit in council and talk of ugly women and steel kisses, and now you expect me to believe that you tried to protect the girl? How big a fool do you take me for?
Well, a big one, Littlefinger laughs. Ned continues being unamused. Murder isn’t funny, you shit. But Littlefinger has a question to ask Ned: when are you getting out of dodge? Soon. Well, if you’re still around by nightfall, Littlefinger would love to take Ned to the secret brothel that Jory has been looking for.
And Littlefinger won’t even tell Catelyn.
And that is AGOT, Eddard VIII: some gripping emotional moments that show us that Ned, despite his faults, is a good man and puts action into words. What did you think Emmett?
Depth
We’ve been building up to this chapter for quite some time, mentioning it in multiple episodes, and for good reason. It’s not necessarily my favorite Ned chapter, but it’s one of the most important ones, because this is where all the tension and uneasy feelings that have defined Ned’s chapters to the date are brought screaming to the surface. Rather than remembering the murder of children, Ned is asked to actively take part in murdering children. Rather than merely feeling uncertain about Robert, Ned gives up all hope in his best friend. Rather than chafing at his new job, Ned outright walks away from it. This is an absolutely vital chapter not only for the plot of AGOT, but for the themes of the entire series, so let’s hope we do it justice!
- As Jeff noted in his synopsis, a major reason this chapter is so effective is how it starts
- We’re in the middle of an argument, rather than seeing it start
- We’re immediately introduced to the core question: “You are talking of murdering a child.”
- Ned is already begging and Robert is already screaming, so the tone is intense and we see the most stark (heh) division yet between the old friends
- Moreover, Robert’s words are so blunt (“I want them dead”) and dehumanizing (“The whore is pregnant”) as to immediately crystallize both the stakes and how far he has fallen in Ned’s and our eyes
- We are also shown right away that Ned stands alone, and that the rest of the councillors are moral cowards who will be of no use:
- The other councillors were all doing their best to pretend that they were somewhere else. No doubt they were wiser than he was. Eddard Stark had seldom felt quite so alone.
- So we know the situation, the consequences, and that all Ned has on his side is whatever arguments he personally can marshal
- Argument #1: “You will dishonor yourself forever if you do this.”
- This promptly proves ineffective for several reasons
- Robert would rather live dishonorably than die honorably:
- "Then let it be on my head, so long as it is done. I am not so blind that I cannot see the shadow of the axe when it is hanging over my own neck."
- The irony being, of course, that there’s a greater threat to his life far closer to home--his own queen--and he is very much blind to it!
- It’s not so much that Robert doesn’t care about honor at all as that he has a hypocritical and shallow perspective on it, as Ned notes...
- "Poison is a coward's weapon," the king complained.
Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?"
- "Poison is a coward's weapon," the king complained.
- ...one that GRRM pointedly contrasts with Ned’s Northern sense of justice:
- "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least."
- Varys and Pycelle both acknowledge that it is, indeed, a hideous act to murder a pregnant teenager, but argue (putting aside how genuine they’re being) that it is worth it to prevent war, in which many more hideous acts would occur
- This is the sort of moral conflict that frequently defines the series: arch-utilitarianism v. something closer to humanism
- Argument #2: “There is no axe,” Ned told his king. “Only the shadow of a shadow, twenty years removed...if it exists at all.”
- Shifting from the moral to the practical, Ned argues that Robert is jumping the gun; they’re several domino falls away from a legitimate threat to Robert’s regime
- “If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear."
- The problem with this argument is that it implicitly sets out criteria by which it would be permissible to send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl
- “But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?”
- So while Ned is not wrong in any of the logistical hurdles he points out, he doesn’t actually think the murder would be OK even if those hurdles were surmounted, so it’s kind of an empty argument
- It’s very similar in that regard to “two is not three” from Team Dragonstone in ASOS. Davos is right when he says that Melisandre has not quite fulfilled the terms of her bargain, but that leaves the door open to her when she does
- Worth noting that the moral and practical arguments are linked together, not by Ned but by Barristan, both here…
- "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb.”
- ...and in ADWD:
- "You kill men for the wrongs they have done, not the wrongs that they may do someday."
- Shifting from the moral to the practical, Ned argues that Robert is jumping the gun; they’re several domino falls away from a legitimate threat to Robert’s regime
- Argument #3: “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”
- This is the most critical argument of all, because it gets at not only the decision Robert is making here and now, but the very foundation of his regime
- What Ned is arguing is that Robert only has the authority to give this order because of a Rebellion fought in the name of defying such an order!
- It’s also interesting because it puts the focus squarely on not Brandon and Rickard, but the squires Aerys also had killed, who are generally swept under the rug by characters, author, and readers alike
- The implication is that if Robert orders Dany killed, he is not fit to sit the Iron Throne; he’s no better than Aerys after all
- This attack on Robert’s legitimacy is linked to the theme of mercy and to the idea that Robert has fallen from grace. He used to be better, he used to understand:
- “Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds." He gave the king a long cool look. "Would that man were here today."
- Gotta love that this is the context in which GRRM first mentions Roose Bolton, urging the murder of a wounded prisoner! (Per the show: “too many hostages.”) Interesting that he was in a position to give advice to Ned and Robert. Was he close by Ned’s side throughout the campaign? How would things have been different had he been among those who accompanied Ned to the Tower of Joy?
- And what is Robert’s response? “To get rid of Targaryens.” Dammit, Bobby B...
- This IMO more than anything else is what leads Ned to give up hope in Robert and quit, for several reasons:
- It abandons any higher principle
- It’s rooted in revenge, which Ned doesn’t care about
- It justifies the murder of Rhaegar’s children
- It would justify the murder of Jon
- The other counselors step aside, one by one
- Varys is being disingenuous and performative, with his own plan cooking:
- “We have no choice,” murmured Varys. “Sadly, sadly . . . ”
- Renly doesn’t care about any of these issues:
- “She must be killed,” Lord Renly declared.
- Nor does Littlefinger:
- "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it."
- Hmm, who could he be referring to there…
- Pycelle actually has an argument…
- "My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will. Yet I ask you this—should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?" He stroked his luxuriant white beard, infinitely sad, infinitely weary. "Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?"
- ...but of course, it’s undercut by the fact that he’s not actually loyal to Robert or Aerys, that he let the Sack happen in hopes of putting Tywin in charge, and above all that (as we will see in Dany VI) war only threatens Westeros *because* of this assassination attempt
- Finally, Barristan stands with Ned:
- “Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."
- But he’s not willing to actually walk away from his beloved post for it. Only when Joffrey kicks him out does he fly to Dany’s side to protect her
- Varys is being disingenuous and performative, with his own plan cooking:
- And so with his king determined to kill children, with his fellow counselors enabling him, and with the rebellion that cost him so much in ideological ruins, Ned Stark decides that the only right thing to do is walk away:
- Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king."
- On one level, you gotta admire that. It takes real courage, not only because (as Ned notes) this might put him in danger from the Iron Throne, but also because Ned is willing to get past the sunk cost fallacy that, for example, swallows Quentyn whole
- On another level, though…
- And there was the other matter, the business with Catelyn and the dwarf that Yoren had warned him of last night. That would come to light soon, as sure as sunrise, and with the king in such a black fury … Robert might not care a fig for Tyrion Lannister, but it would touch on his pride, and there was no telling what the queen might do.
- Yoren gave Ned a significant advantage over the Lannisters here, and not only has he failed to use it, but he’s given away the authority he will need to defend his family from reprisals
- After all, look at how Jaime begins his attack on Ned’s party...
- "What is the meaning of this? This is the Hand of the King."
"He was the Hand of the King." The mud muffled the hooves of the blood bay stallion. The line parted before him. On a golden breastplate, the lion of Lannister roared its defiance. "Now, if truth be told, I'm not sure what he is."
- "What is the meaning of this? This is the Hand of the King."
- ...and how Cersei frames it afterward:
- “By what right do you dare lay hands on my blood?” Cersei demanded. “Who do you think you are?”
"The Hand of the King," Ned told her with icy courtesy. "Charged by your own lord husband to keep the king's peace and enforce the king's justice."
"You were the Hand," Cersei began, "but now—"
- “By what right do you dare lay hands on my blood?” Cersei demanded. “Who do you think you are?”
- So if Ned hadn’t given up the pin, the Lannisters might not have dared move so openly against him--or if they had, Robert might’ve seen that as an attack on him
- And what did Ned gain practically by giving up this advantage over his enemies? Is Daenerys less likely to die because Ned defied Robert? No, not at all!
- Of course, that’s not to say we should take Littlefinger at his word--after all, as Ned points out, there’s no indication Littlefinger cares about sparing Dany
- So it’s not that Ned screwed up, but that it’s more complicated than it might seem
Likes/Dislikes
Like: I got a nice chuckle out of Pycelle growing ever more suspicious of Varys, clearly thinking that the Spider is responsible for Jon Arryn’s death. Nice way to emphasize that despite his reputation as an intellectual, the Grand Maester is always barking up the wrong tree. (Also a good way to misdirect the audience.)
Dislike: The tradeoff for starting the chapter in such a dramatic in medias res fashion is that it kinda loses steam as it goes, whereas most of my favorite chapters in the series are steadily building crescendos. Not that the back half of the chapter is bad, it just can’t compare to the front half.
Like: Can I talk about how much of a shit Renly is about all of this? I mean, sure, Littlefinger is awful, but we know he’s awful. Renly’s whole schtick is that he’s a good guy. And yet, he’s shrugging about murdering children, talking about mercy as a folly and finishing up with “She must be killed.” Now! And this is great work on George’s part. If we think about Renly as modeling himself on a younger version of Robert, well, it makes sense! What did Robert say when Tywin presented the bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys to him? I see no babes. Only dragonspawn. Very Robert-esque.
Dislike: This isn’t a dislike per se, but this chapter is short. So, my suspicion is that at some point, Eddard VIII and Eddard IX were just one chapter before GRRM expanded out a bit -- maybe adding in the Littlefinger/Eddard scene to act as a bridge into Eddard IX and inserting the Catelyn chapter in between these two Ned chapters.
Foreshadowing/Groundwork
GRRM hinting that Littlefinger was behind Jon Arryn’s death
And the truth of Jon Arryn's death still eluded him. Oh, he had found a few pieces, enough to convince him that Jon had indeed been murdered, but that was no more than the spoor of an animal on the forest floor. He had not sighted the beast itself yet, though he sensed it was there, lurking, hidden, treacherous.
How terrific then that just a few paragraphs later, Littlefinger who is nearby, lurking, hidden and treacherous, enters Ned’s solar.
R+L=J foreshadowing!
Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.
Submerged deep in Ned’s subconsciousness is the secret of Jon Snow’s parentage, and how he’s kept it from Catelyn, from Robert, because of the danger those secrets possess to an innocent like Jon and to the realm as a whole.
More Ned Stark death foreshadowing:
“You rule like a man dancing on rotten ice. I daresay you will make a noble splash. I believe I heard the first crack this morning."
Who is the merchant that Littlefinger tried to have the Faceless Men kill?
"On Braavos there is a society called the Faceless Men," Grand Maester Pycelle offered.
"Do you have any idea how costly they are?" Littlefinger complained. "You could hire an army of common sellswords for half the price, and that's for a merchant. I don't dare think what they might ask for a princess.”
Illyrio?
Barristan will bring up this scene to Dany when she lumps the Starks together with the Lannisters as “the Usurper’s dogs”
This is our first mention of Tanda Stokeworth and her desire to find a husband for Lollys, which will come up repeatedly
Theory/Discussion
The moral event horizon: killing and saving children in ASOIAF
A Song of Ice and Fire presents us with many difficult ethical questions, but there are none so poignant as saving children. As Emmett eloquently put it [summarize or quote what Emmett was saying about the situation with Dany/Viserys], but the question doesn’t end with Dany and Viserys. It’s a running theme in ASOIAF. From Davos to Daenerys to Robb, Jaime, Doran Martell, Barristan Selmy, Brienne and Ned Stark and his attempt to save Cersei’s children and the lies he told to save Jon Snow’s life, the themes of preserving the lives of the innocents, especially children and the costs associated with it is something that GRRM wants us to consider.
Davos, Stannis and Edric Storm:
"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ."
"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly. (ASOS, Davos V)
Daenerys, Hazzea, child hostages and her human and dragon children
Doran Martell: wanting his vengeance and saving the lives of children
"And who will deliver us Lord Tywin's head? The Mountain has always been his pet."
The prince gestured toward the pools. "Obara, look at the children, if it please you."
"It does not please me. I'd get more pleasure from driving my spear into Lord Tywin's belly. I'll make him sing 'The Rains of Castamere' as I pull his bowels out and look for gold.”
Barristan Selmy and the child hostages that Skahaz wants dead
"I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I'll have no part of this."
Brienne saving the children at the Inn at the Crossing
Brienne tried to keep the fear from her voice, but her mouth was dry as dust. She had a pretty good notion who wore the Hound's helm. The children, she thought.
Point is that GRRM returns to this theme of children and saving them often. So, what is the thematic point GRRM is making?
I think there are a few intertwined points. One: the sheer emotional reaction to children in danger--we pretty much all feel that. Two: the theme of protection, from Ned sheltering Jon to “a king protects his people or he is no king at all.” Children emphasize that theme because they cannot protect themselves. (See also: superhero comics.) Three: the generational/aspirational angle. Kids are the future. Kill them, and you’ve killed the future. Four: the theme of innocence and justice. In most cases, kids are too young to have done anything worthy of serious punishment, so harm done to them emphasizes a failure of justice. And finally, five: the constant interplay of idealism and disillusionment that one could argue is *the* core theme of the series. Kids fit that perfectly, because they’re going through that, so to do harm to them is the death of idealism and the most hideous of disillusionments. Very meta--it’s about the Young Fantasy Reader, the Sansa/Bran/Tommen/Young Griff/etc. If they are sacrificed, their dreams and thus the genre built upon those dreams is a lie. Fantasy itself is being put to the test.
Conclusion
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