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Chapter 66: World Tiers- Markets and Multiverses

🕑 Added 2023-02-25 05:19:12 +0000 UTC

Comments

Bryan D

After chapters like this I’m always wanting an index. Could you make another filter for World-Info Chapters? Costs of stats, definitions, and the glut chapter would be nice to review again when other world-building information is released.

ShotoGun

“ although that’s not the pointright now.” Need a space there.

acaswell

No worries. I don't always read comments (It depends a lot on my mood), but seeing people have fun in comments and theorizing about the world honestly makes me really happy. :D

acaswell

For the first part: The fact that Miria and co. reincarnate as humans is actually tied to how souls work. The first time a soul is formed (we haven't gotten to that yet) it is 'shaped' a certain way, based on whatever it first reincarnates as. For example, Miria's first life, long ago and completely unremembered, was as a human-ish shape. Souls are naturally drawn to things that fit the same 'template' as their first shape. So Miria and company are all highly statistically likely to be reincarnate as humanoids, even if the exact shape and biology may differ a fair bit from life to life. However, they're generally going to have two arms, two legs, and a head, if that makes sense. Anything else COULD go, but their souls are most drawn towards that kind of body. As for society statistics, I have actually thought about this a fair bit. It was one of the bigger changes made between the second draft and the final draft of the story, even though it doesn't show up as directly on the Islands world. I figure that on average, most civilizations wipe themselves out before reaching interstellar era, often in some catastrophic war. Nuclear bombs on earth are a good example of what COULD go wrong, and I figure that while some societies obviously make the leap past the age where one catastrophic war could end the human(oid) race, most don't. Meaning that civilizations have a high chance of accelerating their odds of having a reincarnator born on them... until they go boom. Of course, the fact that the majority of worlds are magic-using does make that a little weirder, but we'll get into more specifics on THAT sometime in the future, if I can find a good spot for that discussion. I also figure that dimensions stuck around the middle-ages are where a lot of civilizations sort of 'end' their technological progression. There are a lot of interesting tidbits about European and Japanese history (Those are the two historical subjects I'm most versed in, so I tend to draw from them) that point to scenarios where, theoretically, tech could have just... never advanced to where it is today. The fall of Rome, for example, set technology BACKWARDS a fair bit in most respects, right? I figure that a lot of the time, in most dimensions, catastrophes set back human civilization about as fast as it progresses forward, more or less. Just because of how many chances human society seems to have had in the past where it could have advanced, but didn't, and then some sort of historical event, or change in climate, or plague, or whatever caused a huge number of deaths, and set society backwards (though some plagues did the exact opposite, interestingly enough...). From there, I assumed that statistically, Miria and Co. are about as likely to reincarnate in one level of technology as the next. If I'm being honest, based on my assumptions, middle-ages and industrial societies should probably make up the majority of the multiverse, as well as societies that progressed down more magic-oriented tech trees, but I figured having each tech level be about as likely as another tech level was ultimately better for the story as a whole. Mostly because if I know that something is statistically likely enough to happen, I feel obligated to put it into the story by sheer weight of numbers, but I didn't want to write like five galactic tech civs in a row followed by maybe three industrial worlds and two middle ages worlds. That would be a bit boring, no? So civs are likely to wipe themselves out a little after our era, never making it to the interstellar level, and plenty of civs get caught in an endless loop of ancient era -> Middle Ages -> catastrophe -> Ancient era -> Middle Ages -> Catastrophe.

acaswell

A few things you might find interesting: Keep in mind most shops are at least relatively specialized in what they sell. I won't get too much into it yet, but targeted reincarnation is possible, though Miria and co. haven't found a shop related to it yet, much the same way they haven't found a shop specialized in producing Market-bodies yet. All worlds, no matter what, have Mana. However, without an ESSENCE present to manipulate it, there's no way to actually use mana or observe its existence. Canonically, Earth would be one such example: No Essence to confirm or manipulate mana, so nobody knows it exists (except for any Transmigrators passing through with the right abilities, of course). A world's tier also refers to average individual strength for powerhouses; therefore, a planet like Earth would be considered Tier 1, even though in an actual conflict we would almost certainly win against the civilizations of a world like the islands world, because technically we're relying on tools to strengthen any fighters from Earth, rather than using supernatural abilities. However, in practice, a couple atomic bombs would be enough to clear away the Megailian empire, even if it probably wouldn't kill the giant ocean monster. (This does get a bit wonky with some more crafting-related magic systems, but as a rough estimate for how much one individual can do in a world, it holds up fairly well). Any world without the ability to manipulate mana (one of the four essences), but with enough mana to support intelligent life, is Tier 1. Even if the strength of civilizations as a whole might be very different from 1 Tier 1 world to the next.

acaswell

You actually got most of the skill scaling, yes. The two you were missing were Mythical -> Primordial -> Law 0. I'm surprised you got it this early in the story. I was planning on introducing the whole list later XD, but I figured adding too much of it here would be overwhelming. There are also a few 'big bottlenecks' in skill progression, such as the difficulty of going from Master to Heroic and how that represents a few specific things in-story, but we haven't really gotten to that yet.

Treviisolion

Also sorry for the spam of comments, I just love worldbuilding and this chapter added a bunch of information for me to speculate on.

Treviisolion

I am also curious as to what the technological makeup of the multiverse is. Presumably there are a number of dimensions that are incapable of supporting life, perhaps even most of them, or which could support life but not develop life and thus must be seeded with life from extra-dimensional colonizers to be reincarnated into. Transmigrators couldn't ever reincarnate into a dimensions without intelligent life, presumably, though it would be interesting to be born into a society of chimps with the gang being the only fully sapient entities on the planet. So far it also seems that the residents are either largely or strictly human/humanoid in form and psychology as no examples so far have deviated from that. That is interesting given that the Patreon tier list indicates that interstellar and even inter-dimensional civilization are a thing, and unless mana does some specific stuff to force intelligence to evolve within humanoid forms and supress non-humanoid forms of intelligence, you would presume a much more diverse society were its citizens uniformly distributed amongst all intelligent species, so the Market seems to have a bias towards humanoid intelligent people. If we then assume that most humanoid societies could be broken up into Tribal, Agricultural, Industrial, and Post-Development (a point where technological developments have significantly slowed down because most useful technology has been developed and all or most fundamental questions have been answered, most space-age civilizations would fall into here). According to some online sources there are an estimated ~8 billion humans that lived between 200,000 BCE and 50,000 BCE. Were we to say that Homo Erectus was similar enough to Homo Sapiens to be transmigratable, then we could add maybe another 96 billion humans to that list. Or in other words 114 billion humans that have lived in the Paleolithic. Meanwhile an estimated 90 billion people were born between 50,000 BCE and 1750 CE, which roughly corresponds to Agricultural societies. Since 1750 there's been another 20 billion that have lived which corresponds roughly to the Industrial period. It is difficult to estimate how many humans will live in the Industrial period of our civilization given that it could end quite quickly, birth rates are expected to fall dramatically over the next century but how much they fall is very dependent upon what policies our societies enact, future technological or societal trends could change that trend, and we don't know whether most technologically will have been developed by the end of this century, in the next few centuries, or if we'll grow exponentially as we have been doing for the last 3 centuries for the next few millennia. I could make the assumption that we're near the halfway point for Industrial civilizations and that by 2100 we'll reach a mostly stable population of around 10 billion that slowly grows over the next few centuries, giving us 30 billion additional people that must be born over the next 3 centuries assuming birth rates don't dramatically fall either keeping us at 10 billion people or growing us to 30 billion people if life-extensions tech means most people become capable of living for a few centuries by the end of this century. So 50 billion people in the Industrial period in total. Post-development civilizations gets even weirder because interstellar civilizations should be extremely long-lived, because even if any insterstellar organizations collapse, there would be so many people in so many corners of the galaxy or galaxies that completely wiping out all their knowledge would be nigh impossible, and the average person should have access to data storage banks easily capable of holding all the knowlege needed to rebuild their civilization from scratch so without active intervention, post-development civilizations should fix themselves up fairly easily should something happen to them (something like what's happening to the Market where some kind of enemy forces seem to be preventing any surviving transmigrators from rebuilding by making the communal area incredibly deadly to transmigrators of all strengths, would generally be needed). As such even low estimates tend to give ridiculous numbers with dozens of digits given how many planets there are out there in our galaxy alone and how long said civilizations could theoretically last with fairly mundane tech. One estimate gave about 6 billion earth-like planets in the Milky Way around sun-like stars. Assuming we decided to keep population sizes small at around 1 billion per planet, ignored all other options like non-earth-like planets, and non-sun like stars, space habitats, virtual spaces, etc. and we had biological immortality so once the billion threshold was reached, people just largely stopped having kids, that's still 6 quadrillion people, and that's a very low estimate and assumes most people live for millennia or even millions of years without ever having kids. Whether transmigrators are randomly put on planets based on population numbers or on time, transmigrators should overwhelmingly find themselves on Interstellar civilizations unless Interstellar civilizations are exceptionally rare or short-lived, rarely colonizing more than a few star systems before being wiped out in some form or fashion, or there is an inherent bias in where transmigrators part of the Market reincarnate. In terms of rarity at the lower end of population estimates, in order to put the other tech periods more on par with post-development period, a humanoid species that colonized their local galaxy or beyond would need to be limited to only one in every billion dimensions to put the odds back into balance. On higher ends it could be closer to 1 in octillions given how easy it is to inflate numbers when talking about galactic spanning civilizations that last for millions of years. Given that Industrial worlds are apparently common enough that Sel'thub thought to warn about them, and two of our three protagonists come from a post-Industrial Revolution world, this either implies that Industrial period worlds rarely go on to colonize their galaxy, and potentially even rarely last for more than a few centuries before going extinct, as even if humanity restricted itself to having it's main population center on Earth, kept population levels down to 1 billion, and lasted for a mere 1000 years before blowing ourselves up or dying to some other threat, that's still 1 trillion people in a post-development civilization (albeit one far more limited in scope than a galactic-spanning civilization), and any time humanity could crawl itself back up to that standard would add another trillion or so people to weight the scales towards being born in said society whereas Agricultural worlds would take hundreds of thousands of years to match and Tribal worlds tens of millions, while Industrial worlds should either exponentially grow into Post-Development worlds or collapse under their weight. Or post-development civilizations are rarely transmigrated for some other reason. Perhaps because they are powerful enough to be aware of the Market and to prevent transmigrators from being reincarnated into their societies, given that the average parent probably doesn't want to raise a millennia old man as their first child, and transmigrators which seek achievement which strongly encourages them to make waves, would be antithetical to any post-development civilizations which would be opposed to any such waves being made as they could be threatening to their long-term survival as they likely would have found an optimum existence state for their particular flavor of civilization and would oppose suffering chaos to move to a less optimum state. I am curious as to what assumptions are held in relationship to this story and how that'll affect Miria and gang going forward.

Treviisolion

On the topic of dimensional strength, knowing that achievement gained is proportional to local mana and essence is certainly interesting and raises questions about how to cheese the system if you get lucky. For example according to Chapter 7, 1 in every 16 worlds is effectively magicless. There are two possibilities there, either the likelihood of a world having magic is largely independent of how much mana there is (though as mentioned it sounds like there does need to be some mana or else magic has no fuel to function), in which case theoretically 1 in every 16 Tier 20 worlds would be magicless and just have superhuman people inhabiting them, but no magic, in which case if you got extremely lucky (multiplying the probabilities gives a 50% chance of encountering one every 1,888 worlds and thus Miria and gang could encounter one sometime in the next 40-80 thousand years if they continue to burn through worlds and live a mere two decades on average) be able to farm a lot of achievement by using your magic to give you an even edge with the local superhuman rulers. Alternatively, if even a Tier 20 world still has Grade 5 as its average stat block for the ordinary peasantry, and given that a world full of superhumans is probably a bit less likely to start an Industrial Revolution, using knowledge gained from a highly advanced civilization to allow ordinary peasants to live a standard of living similar to the medium-powers of their local dimensions could be a relatively assured way to farm achievement, assuming you have practice with that sort of thing and knowledge of how to make tools capable of significantly shrinking the gap between a Grade 5 and Grade 80 person. Most said superhumans would probably be specialized towards fighting other superhumans and have their skills tailored towards small duels and fights and generally using their overwhelming might to wash away any untrained armies, but if you managed to bring up the average peasant up enough in strength that the average superhuman couldn't wash away an army using raw strength and force them to rely on their strengths to take down an army one person at a time, a supported army could potentially take down some decently-powerful powerhouses and so long as you didn't pick a fight with the top dogs, gain immense influence. The fact that so far there hasn't been any item other than the Friendship bracelet mentioned that affects where people reincarnate suggests to me that they are either so difficult to produce that most transmigrators realistically give up on owning them until they are so old and powerful that they don't need them other than to keep themselves out of lower tier worlds where achievement farming is pitiful, or are fundamentally impossible, because the ability to even influence the Tier or tech level of the world you reincarnate to would be immensely powerful for long-term growth. I am curious as to why Tier 0 worlds are typically on the verge of intelligence-extinction. Does a world reaching that point make it a Tier 0 world, and thus theoretically a Tier 20 world could be rebranded as a Tier 0 world if in the process of its lifetime the local intelligent inhabitants never develop agriculture or industrial civilization and are driven to the verge of extinction once their star's life is up and the oceans slowly boil away over the course of hundreds of millions of years, and thus while Tier roughly indicates the difficulty of the world, a Tier 0 world could have more mana and thus provide more achievement than higher Tier worlds simply by the fact that it has more mana even if other factors like a dire lack of breathable air and the existence of water limit how much the local superhumans are able to be a threat. Alternatively does being a world with pitiful amounts of mana mean that civilization struggles to get off the ground before natural causes wipe everyone out, and thus my previous example would still be a Tier 20 world, just one without as many threats other than lack of resources.

Treviisolion

Based on the information gained in this chapter would I be correct in assuming that there are 20 tiers of skills and that they go from: Basic -> Intermediate -> Advanced -> Expert -> Master -> Heroic -> Epic -> Legendary -> Mythical -> Unknown (probably Demi-god or something like that) -> Unknown (probably God or Divine or something like that) -> Law-1 -> Law-2 -> Law-3 -> Law-4 -> Law-5 -> Law-6 -> Law-7 -> Law-8 -> Law-9 Either way this indicates that there is a lot of room for growth for Miria and gang given that Sel'thub has lived somewhere between twelve centuries and twelve millennium depending on if he only lives about a decade or a century in each life on average or somewhere in-between and apparently is still on Legendary, though I'm guessing that without the existential risk in the Market he probably wasn't power-leveling to the same extent Miria and gang are likely to.

Treviisolion

When you mentioned Tiers again, I had to go back to see what Tier the previous world was. I had a bit of a similar reaction to Miria upon realizing that it was a mere Tier 2 world, and that levels apparently go up to Tier 20.

The Lost Pages

Thanks for the chapter. Siggestion for the release schedule: Plan 3 bonus the rest. Go so far as to mark any extra chapters with [Bonus] in the title. I for one love consistency. And I love extra chapters like the one yesterday. This method gives us the best of both worlds.

Stephen Pearson

Thanks for the chapter! :-)


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