RunFaps
Andy Matuschak
Andy Matuschak patreon

Implicit practice - a sight reading parable

🕑 Added 2022-04-01 05:24:22 +0000 UTC

Comments

Martin Bernstorff

Hi Adam! Extremely intriguing thoughts! As Andy noted, I'd also really enjoy if you have any notes on your experience while trying a practice like this :-)

Parker

Meditation! Explicitly practicing noticing stress and choosing not to get stressed. Those who are free from stress/know how to calm on the spot are called "enlightened". Really, it's just an explicit skill that we all can practice with the correct instructions.

Oshyan Greene

Very late to a reply on this! I completely understand your feelings here. I would love to see any of this stuff if you ever change your mind. In the meantime I'm going to do my best to put some of *my* ideas and terrible designs out in the world and hope that inspires you and/or others like you to feel a little more bold to do so. 😁

Andy Matuschak

This is super interesting, Eric. Thank you for sharing! This jives with some of my piano practice orchestration experiences. In a future project I'd really like to explore what sort of scheduling primitives seem best-suited to this sort of activity.

Eric 'Siggy'

Hi Andy—just noticed your second comment & question! I like the "programmable attention" concept handle! It's been ringing in my head all week—a nice way of putting one's thumb on that aspect of SRS's benefit. As for mathematical practice: yes, I find value in repeating the same exercises (typically proofs, rather than numerical computations). I feel like my experience validates Michael Nelsons' notion (from his popular essay at http://augmentingcognition.com/ltm.html) that math involves more memory than we give it credit for. The popular assumption seems to be that you aren't really doing math unless you're doing "new problems" and not relying on memory. The SRS paradigm, by contrast, suggests that ~80% of my time should be spend reviewing and reinforcing old problems so my skill does not decay. It's a different perspective. One upside is that it builds confidence. It keeps most of my mathematical effort within the "flow" zone, so I don't get discouraged as easily, and look forward to my whiteboarding sessions—including the harder parts, when I dive into new material. The obvious fear is rote memorization. My experience, though, is that each time I do a proof, it gives me an opportunity to think about more deeply: to recognize *why* we prove such-and-such an inequality before using such-and-such an identity to cinch the case. Sometimes this leads me to create regular flash cards to pin down key insights (like, say, a graphic pointing out how such-and-such a polynomial bound on e^x is tighter for x > 0, while such-and-such a bound is tighter for x < 0). I think my experience mirrors what I've heard of people who memorize famous chess games. Sure, memorizing a sequence of moves by rote won't help you play your own games. But nobody does that, because it's almost impossible. Instead, the only way to remember many, long games is to *understand why* each move was made—and semantic encodings like that have a better chance of generalizing. The general principle here seems to be that "rote memorization doesn't exist at scale:" any time we learn a large number of things (ex. sentences in a foreign language), we automatically learn general, semantic knowledge to cope with the scale of it all. In that sense, understanding how proofs I've picked up really work in detail ought to generalize to building my ability to be creative. All I can say for sure is that it definitely helps me gain greater fluidity-of-reasoning with concepts than flash cards alone have been able to (even though I invest a lot of effort in creating image-heavy, insight-heavy flash cards that hit ideas from multiple angles). The most tangible benefit I can see is that it seems to be giving me fluidity with certain facts that recur in proofs. It breathes life into definitions: knowing that a subgroup is a subset of a group that is closed under an operation and inverses is fine (makes for a fine Anki card), but periodically doing a few proofs that such-and-such a subset is a subgroup under different circumstances helps make the idea much more fluid. Knowing the statement of a No Free Lunch theorem is swell, but having a proof of one in my back pocket makes it more tangible (almost 3D). Likewise, memorizing a proof that 1 + x <= e^x exercises certain calculus facts. But then using that inequality result to further prove that e^x <= 1/(1-x) (for x < 1) gives you a view of that result from the "client" side, so to speak (a "user" of the result). Pretty soon, 1 + x <= e^x starts to feel less like a complex piece of arcana, and more like a familiar, foundational fact: "oh yeah, that super important inequality so many other things are derived from." And so on for the geometric series (which shows up over and over in computer science proofs), etc. Overall it feels much like how reading/listening in a target language builds fluid comfort with common vocab and grammar—except I'm scheduling it, rather than relying on natural repetition in the wild. All that said, I've only been doing full, scheduled proofs (rather than flash cards with atomic facts or "so-short-you-can-do-it-in-your-head" proofs) for a few months. An open question is how well it will scale. It's clear I can maintain this up to a few hundred exercises—but I'm not sure what will happen once I've built up a library of thousands. Will I have to start suspending some as the intervals get too large to support long-form, procedural performances? Or will SRS-style scheduling still work? We shall see!

Andy Matuschak

This is so intensely interesting, Adam. Thank you for sharing! I can definitely empathize. I've been building software for 20+ years, but I've only ever done the "planning a project" thing, say, a couple dozen times. I can really believe that doing this kind of practice would help. Incidentally, and not withstanding my refusal to do so in the comment above, I bet a lot of people would really enjoy seeing any notes you might care to share on your experiences doing that kind of practice.

Andy Matuschak

Thanks for the kind words and for your generous support, Malcolm! I've gotten a lot out of reading your reflections on similar topics, too. 🙇‍♂️ I think you're right that a bottlenecking workshop would be useful for lots of people, but I have a strong allergy to multi-person video chat events, so I'll have to beg off. If you'd like to host such a thing, I'd love to hear about it!

Andy Matuschak

Thank you for the kind words, Oshyan! Your request for sharing the list and my design work is totally reasonable, but I notice that I feel a strong instinct not to. I think there's a part of me that's very self-conscious about my weak design skills, and feels threatened by the prospect of this work being shared. I worry that if I did this, it would make me feel less comfortable engaging in the practice. Maybe in the future, as my feelings about this change…

Andy Matuschak

https://notes.andymatuschak.org/Programmable_attention I'm also curious how this works for mathematical exercises for you! Once you've solved one once, is there value for you in solving it again? Or do you have to wait quite a while?

Andy Matuschak

This is really fascinating: thank you for this thoughtful message! I love the way that you're using these systems to orchestrate all kinds of tasks, complete with feedback loop. I've been calling this broader framing "programmable attention", and I really think you're right that a central benefit is constant orchestration overhead, as you suggest here: "If I have to *decide what to practice* before sitting down to make progress, then I find simply won't sit down at all (except in a rare surge of energy every few weeks or months or—meaninglessly—years). Anki is a force multiplier, because I can create new cards in those natural "surges" of curiosity, but then practice them every day."

Andy Matuschak

These were new to me, thank you! Yes, this dichotomy seems to manifest in a few places. Flow vs. deliberate practice seems to be another angle on the same, per Ericsson: flow is pleasurable and often involved in directly useful applications, but deliberate practice is generally regarded as unpleasant and produces no output other than skill improvement.

Hi Andy, I've been turning over the idea of intentional practice for (engineering) leadership. I had a similar/adjacent problem to your sight-seeing challenge: I was unable to conceive of how I could practice at leadership without "doing it live"/in a work setting _or_ without recruiting a role-playing partner[1]. The turn for my "practice" was realizing a one common task I struggled with was as repeatable and atomic[2] as scales are for music: Turning a project that has some clarity but clearly lacks a lot of details into enough of a plan that one can consider how to execute it is a classic "unreasonably difficult even when you account for how difficult it is" problem for software teams, as you likely know from experience. It turns out that all one needs to _practice_ at it is available on the marketing websites of the numerous startups and product companies out in the world. Any number of feature or pricing pages are sufficiently interesting to ask yourself "how would I start building this?" and do a 15-60 minute exercise of breaking it down, thinking about scenarios, discovering risks and dependencies, laying out a plan, and even thinking out the high-level technical design. Much like working from a Disney songbook, this is even easier if you start from products you already know. Most developers know GitHub's features pretty well, so starting from their page on [Pull Requests](https://github.com/features/code-review) is a familiar starting point that lets one work on the mechanics of thinking holistically and then down to details about how to build a wholly new capability or feature into a product. It seems like this epiphany allowed me to move from a "well I guess this struggle bus is going to limit my growth" mindset to "I can get as good as I want at this by doing the reps" perspective, much like your sight reading journey. [1] I suspect role-playing management scenarios is half of what leadership coaches do? [2] Atomic in the sense that you can "return to square one" at your own pace without imposing on anyone else. To carry the metaphor, practice sessions are more atomic than rehearsals and performances.

Malcolm Ocean

Whoa! This is really cool. It makes me think it would be neat to have an online event that walks people through a process of figuring out what might be bottlenecking their skills in various domains. Maybe an interintellect salon or something like that! I'd be happy to help with hosting this if you're interested in doing it. (Also I've been consistently impressed by what you're doing here and so I jumped up a contribution tier 🔥)

Oshyan Greene

Although I'm not a piano player, this was a very relatable story! My coach frequently reminds me of the value of *explicit*, intentional practice, even with things I take for granted. And yet I have resistance to it, focusing more often on the "boring"/tedious aspects. So I appreciate both that you are taking on the practice work with enthusiasm, and that you well described some of the joy that can *also* come from it. I'm also curious about this "big list of software which I wish existed" and the "few examples which I felt required no unusual representations, no unusual conceptual or interaction models". Might you share either the entire list, a part of it, and/or perhaps some of the design sketches? I know you felt they weren't something you would want to share, but I am absolutely interested in what output *at this level* looks like, and more especially in the specific tools *you* wish existed in the world. I have my own such lists (and my ultra simple design sketches, though I'm not a designer), but knowing your areas of focus I'm quite curious about yours. Thanks as always for sharing your process and journey in interesting and insightful ways!

Eric 'Siggy'

Andy, Boy do I resonate with this post! I've been going through much the same epiphany as you for the last few months. - I am living the exact same trajectory on the piano: love to play my memorized Rachmaninoff, but trying to pick up new material—even the easiest of Mozart's sonatas—leaves me stuck at a snail's pace. - I have about 12,000 Anki cards for Spanish (build over 5 years), but still can't really watch TV worth beans, read comfortably or converse above a child's level. - A few thousand computing & mathematics cards have clearly done wonders for my professional development (it's clear I learn more with spaced repetition as a professional than I would by relying on "implicit practice" for everything)—but there really is no field that I am comfortable, say, writing novel mathematical proofs in. To say nothing of "invisible" skill failures—like getting better at research management or proposal writing skills, which one normally advances in just by doing a handful of novel projects each year. Personally, the two insights that have been a breakthrough for me this year are 1. Using Anki to schedule (non-atomic) performance practice, and 2. Don't be afraid to practice "embarassingly easy" things over and over to build up a repertoire of fluency. ——— (1) surprises me because I've said for years that SRS is good for declarative fact/concept/intuition building, but not for **procedural memory** tasks (like a piano performance). The closest we can get to the latter, I though, is a tiny bit of context (ex. a 4-5 word sentence fragment for language learning with a nice text-to-speech clip for audio reinforcement). The trick to scheduling performances in Anki, I've found, is to **bury** cards when a performance is rough. For example, say a Beethoven piece comes up that I haven't played in 2 months. I can pay it, but it's **very rough**. Needs practice. So I might bury the card two or three days in a row, so I can practice it smooth—and only then will I hit "good." (I also configure the deck so that intervals don't grow unless I hit "easy," but I digress). This has been revolutionary, because it allow me to ascend to the same kind of superhuman practice habit that SRS allows in other areas: because it spoon-feeds me material that is not too hard, but not too easy, Anki always has a degree of "flow" (to borrow a term from video game design), and thus is the *only* skill-building habit that I can maintain on a daily basis over a scale of years (rather than weeks or months). If I have to *decide what to practice* before sitting down to make progress, then I find simply won't sit down at all (except in a rare surge of energy every few weeks or months or—meaninglessly—years). Anki is a force multiplier, because I can create new cards in those natural "surges" of curiosity, but then practice them every day. ——— (2) I picked up from the language learning community, when I realized that some people interpret "comprehensible input" much like you describe sight reading practice: practicing a large repertoire of easy material over and over. Before this, I had thought that to reach that magical "98% vocab mastery" so often sighted as a prerequisite for extensive reading, I had to master 98% of common Spanish vocabulary (for example) by brute force. Now I realize that no, I should be mastering individual texts and videos that feel far "below my level," and then *reviewing them* regularly. At the beginner & intermediate level, comprehensible input is created, not found. - I now spend much of my Anki time each day reading easy texts in Ancient Greek and watching easy videos in Spanish—as scheduled by the app. "New cards" in this paradigm are text/video/audio I don't yet have the vocabulary to understand: the task for those is to keep creating flash cards from them bit by and burying them (so they appear the next day) until they are comprehensible, at which point they can exit the learning phase and become part of the regular review schedule. This is what I mean by "creating" comprehensible input (I suppose it has something in common with incremental reading). - On the professional side, I have extended this to **proof writing** and mathematical **exercises,** chosen to align with my current research projects at work (and to exercise definitions/theorems that I have previously memorized with a traditional Anki approach). This allows me to build up my own training repertoire over time, even when the skills in play are not *extremely* well characterized (though yes, I still rely on exercises from mathematical textbooks). It's been empowering. I already had SRS of declarative knowledge as a "secret weapon," giving me a way to consciously practice and grow my professional skill beyond implicit practice. But adding longer-form performance exercises, scheduled by an app to keep me in the "flow" zone, feels like a new secret power. Sight-reading for piano is the natural next domain for me to apply this strategy to...

Jarrett Ye

Maybe it is off topic, I associate to the Extensive Reading and Intensive Reading in second language acquisition. Extensive Reading provides plenty of comprehensive input for acquisition. It is similar to the practice of sight reading.


More Creators