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Ep. 774 - Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes (GUEST: Roxana Hadadi)

🕑 Added 2024-05-14 13:00:11 +0000 UTC

Comments

John Halski

It took me a while to catch up to this film, so call this a very cold take. I think the film was a lot more overtly ambiguous about the characters and their respective intentions. I never thought the film expected us to side with the humans or see the characters as black-and-white, good-versus-evil. It’s clearly a first part of a trilogy, so I think it’s hard to judge how successful it is. But it’s earned enough good will for me to give them a chance.

Michael Zhang

Great discussion! While I personally love Kingdom, I can understand the criticisms. As a blockbuster action/adventure, it's so much better than almost everything else coming out these days, and I thought the CGI was still miles above most stuff these days. But compared to the previous trilogy, I can see why it falls short. I think these movies have always been tragedies, and about how ape/human nature and greed for power keeps getting in the way of peace and harmony. We're rooting for the apes, but we can understand why Mae does what she does, bc she's just doing what she think is best for her kind. I don't think she's supposed to be positioned as a villain or hero. In that sense, I appreciate the moral ambiguity of not knowing who we're rooting for.

Mountain of Conflict

Dave wouldn't do that. He's not an asshole.

Simon Columb

Fwiw - while Kingdom was not great at all, I do still like Apes movies and with the right new direction, I'd turn up for the next one

Stranger2Reality

Agreed completely. The woman who stalked him knew he was a performer with an audience, so it's not like she could never have seen that her actions might wind up in some of the entertainment he was creating. Also, as an aside, I hate how often the discussion on this podcast focuses less on the thing they watched, but instead more on the discussion surrounding the thing they watched. IMO the show itself is far more interesting, important and worthy of discussion than what the fans chose to do with it afterwards, or the interview the person portrayed did with Pierce Morgan. I feel like to sideline the discussion of the show in favor of focusing on that, really kind of missed the point.

Hillary

I feel like a lot of things that got brought up as negatives in the review were actually explained in the movie? It's too spoilery to talk about here, but Dave brought up the thing about Mae near the end, and I thought that was pretty clear in the movie (I'm pretty sure multiple characters actually just say it directly), same with the presence of another character that they were wondering how they got there (again, it was explained directly by another character). I don't necessarily love little exposition dumps like that, I think there's better ways to do it, but I think it's inaccurate to say it wasn't explained. But I also didn't dislike the movie as much as it seemed like they did, so I might just be more forgiving of it in general.

Hillary

I think it's partially because the woman involved is clearly mentally unwell. That's not his problem, of course, but I would say the show has been a very big net-negative in her life (again, not his problem, but worth considering).

Hillary

Listening to this review I genuinely feel like I saw different movies.

Mike Aparicio

Had you grown up watching Star Trek TOS, you probably wouldn't have batted an eye at the fact that the temperature, day/night cycle, gravity, sun and inhabitants were almost identical to Earth because THEY HAD TO FILM IT ON EARTH.

AJ Karim

I don’t know what it is but i just dislike Roxanna’s takes and criticisms. From White Lotus - to this, there is a condescending tone to everything she speaks of

David Esposito

Regarding Baby Reindeer, I agree with Devindra. The only thing they could do is just not make it and change the names in order to protect people’s identities. Is he not allowed to tell this story? Why should he have to change things around so they aren’t identified? I think he has the right to tell his story truthfully and if people get identified, that’s life. Maybe don’t stalk people then. However, saying it’s a true story then changing details isn’t good.

Mountain of Conflict

I meant Escape, sorry.

Jeff Gibson

Is "Return" also known as "Escape from the Planet of the Apes"? That's the only one I've heard is widely considered to be good after the original.

Mountain of Conflict

Also if Dave likes to troll about that, how many of the hosts knew something was up with Mae

Mountain of Conflict

Beneath: A repeat of 1968, but the last act is bonkers Escape: My favourite. A court case against apes! Conquest: Race riots with apes. Watch the unrated version Battle: The only really bad one.

Ben Wesorick

That Cut Gems joke tho 💀💀💀

Raja Pe

I like Dark Matter conceit; but like the hosts, I agree that most iterations of the idea don’t add anything new. The only recent exception I can find is the TV show Slip by Zoe Lister Jones. It came out in 2023 but got lost in the fog of the streaming wars. I think it came out on the Roku Channel? It has a salacious premise that really captures the current millennial yearning for what could have been.

83sharpe .

In regard to Baby Reindeer, I feel as though a person has a right to tell their story even if reveals someone’s identity. I don’t follow how that’s morally ambiguous

Jason Sansbury

I understand the level of disbelief we have that an astronaut in the first Planet of the Apes didn’t know he was on Earth. But, I would like to point out that the movie came out BEFORE mankind landed on the moon. That maybe helps put the different world of then into perspective.

Jeff Gibson

It's interesting that Dave keeps saying he's heard the other Planet of the Apes movies are great, because I've always heard by everyone that most of them are NOT great or even good except for maybe one of the sequels. It'll be interesting to hear his responses to the sequels.

Danny C

“Cut Gems” …once again I almost spit out my drink. I know it’s unlikely to happen but I am rooting for Dave to win the Summer Movie Wager and pick The Coffee Table as the movie everyone must watch.

Reynaldo K. Cruz

Nah there was at least one person of color in the feral band

Anthony Schumacher

Jeff mentioned his daughter’s autism. AMC offer special sensory screenings the second and fourth Saturdays in association with the autism society. They lower the movie volume, keep the light slightly on, and allow moving around the theater.

Grant McConnaughey

I’m not apathetic, just realistic. The genie is out of the bottle and it ain’t going back in. Artists and writers should learn to use AI as part of their creative process or they will be replaced by those who do. It’s entirely up to them.

Nervous_NRG

It’s this sort of apathetic attitude that will lead to that. The entire industry was shut down to support actors and writers, was that a waste of time because they should just accept AI will replace some (or all) of what they do?

Nervous_NRG

I did the same thing... I’ve probably spent $4 on something worse at some point, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.

Hahmstrung

Don't be a fool like me and watch The Coffee Table because of this episode.

BENJAMIN SHULTZ

Kingdom of the Apes?! What is this, some kind of new empire?

Mountain of Conflict

I didn't really like the movie, some of it is echoed here. But there's also some silly complaints. The movie basically says "some apes lost the ability to read and who does that benefit: Proximus". Maybe that's because Proximus wanted it that way? That's easy to understand and mirrors some history in our world. And of course the movie says apes shouldn't have weapons, because those are tools which are mainly used to kill and oppress (Mae immediately shoots someone). If you watch this series and think it says "kill all humans, apes are the future" you missed some big points. Obviously they should and could co-exist which is always jeopardised because someone like Caesar is rare and one bad actor, for good or bad reasons, can tip the scales. Like they hunt and then kill humans for no reason. Obviously the humans can't just peace off. And no, Noa didn't have to learn the song. The birds felt his insecurity etc. He found that at the end when he decided to save all and not just his clan or mother. Like I get if you don't like the movie to make fun of it, but then it's weird to fault the movie for not dealing more with stuff (I agree) while missing what it's actually saying.

Shane Driscoll

I for one am baffled that Dave didn't do a "boom goes the dynamite" joke vis a vis Coffee Table and Hereditary.

Grant McConnaughey

You said it all much better than I could. Thanks for adding that.

Sacha Greif

To piggy-back on this, I think we all need to update our understanding of how generative AI is used. First of all, just because an image is produced by AI doesn't mean an artist wasn't paid to create it. They might use AI as part of an overall creative process. Second, the main ethical concern about AI is the fact that many models are trained on datasets collected without the creator's consents. But there are also models where this isn't the case, so unless you know more specifics it's hard to make a judgement either way. Finally, even for AI models that do reuse previous work without permission, I think there is an argument to be made that, similar to sampling, this is just another creative technique with its own merits, and that we might want to hold back before automatically siding with rights-holders (see for example what happened with hip-hop sampling once major labels realized they could stand to make a fortune by enforcing their rights).

Grant McConnaughey

Anyone upset about Late Night with the Devil using AI to generate 2 images is going to have a really unenjoyable rest of their life, because this technology is not going anywhere and will only be used more and more in film. 😅 There is no stopping it.

Mountain of Conflict

Yeah, how is it a bad thing that Kingdom makes the human vs. apes conflict morally even more complicated.

Josh

Was yelling at my phone during the Hunt for Gollum talk. It is set during Fellowship of the Ring, and Aragorn is doing the hunting.

Stranger2Reality

Agreed. If they've never seen a Neil Breen film before, they truly do not know what they are in for. He elevates the art of shitty filmmaking to a whole other level.

Matti Groll

Great episode, as always! I liked Kingdom much more than anyone on the podcast, but I think most of the criticisms are fair. But I'm a bit confused by their takes of the Matt Reeves films being separatist and pitting apes as good and humans as bad. I think the last two films repeatedly challenge Caesar's (and Koba's) notion that ape = good, human = bad. In Dawn, Caesar chooses to kill Koba, claiming that "he is not an ape." So, in that moment, it's no longer ape = good, human = bad, it's good = ape, bad = human. It seems that throughout the trilogy, Caesar's arc is consistently realizing that there are good apes and bad apes, just like there are good humans and bad humans, and a theme throughout those films is Caesar's followers misunderstanding that message (e.g. his son in the second film). I don't think Kingdom is as nuanced as the previous films, but the idea that Caesar's message is now being warped generations later is not only a great religious allegory, but also very consistent with what we see in the previous trilogy. I noticed that Proximus always repeated "apes together strong", but never repeated "ape no kill ape," which is pretty consistent with how people fixate on things in religious texts and blindly ignore others. I think Kingdom suffers from setting up some stuff for sequels, but I do think that some of the stuff they wished was touched upon via Noa/Mae will be addressed there. Not saying it handled it perfectly here, but I think a lot of it tracks from the previous trilogy. Sorry for the long post!

Wil Johnson

I cannot believe Peter is making yall watch Fateful Findings. This is the worst thing I’ve ever seen. At least the episode will be good

Gareth

Just want to say I love when anyone but especially Dave covers old movies on the show. Citizen Kane was one of my favorite reviews and I’m super hyped to hear his thoughts on the other Apes sequels.