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Why is everyone suddenly neurodivergent?

🕑 Added 2023-05-20 12:01:00 +0000 UTC
Why is everyone suddenly neurodivergent?

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I think that Elon Musk just saw Sheldon in the Big Bang theory series...

Thank you, Jeffery, very interesting talk this week, hearing so many great thoughts from all over the 🌎

Happy Tuesday, Colleen! If people were more accepting of differences and willing to work with others, then we wouldn't be having this discussion simply because certain people wouldn't feel marginalized, IMO. There is a point of dysfunction that requires professional help and the mental health professionals really need to work at defining that such that people within what is normal aren't simply labeled. There is the problem of overdiagnosing, such as when homosexuality was labeled as a mental issue that we need to avoid.

Happy Tuesday, Thomas! I agree. The problem with them is that there are no differentiations to make, such as when something within 'normal' becomes dysfunctional. They need to be ignored for the benefit of those suffering the dysfunction.

Hi Colleen, glad about another illuminating talk with you. German language can be very onomatopoeic. In this case, 'wirk..' means, to cause something. So the german word 'Wirklichkeit' means not just reality, but environment, in which you cause, able to change. Affolter is from the german speaking part of Switzerland, so the book was written in german originally, though she also worked in the US for some years. It's a really great book about who we are, what makes sense, and what's our relationship to the world, even a bit like physics, including many case studies about diseases in the development of heavily affected children, and how to care about them. These ones are far far away from writing Patreon comments, and so are the people, I care for. I agree, of course, what you said about albeism, but I think, if we use the term 'neurodiversity', it should include everyone, otherwise it's just a battle term and a new attribution for discrimination. And we should not deny, that humans are able to give and accept help, that everyone needs and gives in ones life. If I loose a leg by accident, it's not quite helpful, if someone tells me, "doesn't matter, you're just bodydiverse". More useful would be someone, who gives me a prothesis and trains me walking.

You're surely right.

Thing being, there's being 'not normal', and then there's 'dealing with shit caused by how someone's brain works.' Ableism is insisting we're not actually different-brained, and/or minimising our difficulties 'everyone's a bit autistic/ADHD' (like, no, people who say that are undiagnosed neurodivergents, dismissive arseholes, or both) or characterising the conditions as 'gifts' or 'superpowers' without acknowledging the various difficulties that hinder people in their goals, in relationships, study, work, home life, etc.. I know I'm likely not the only neurodivergent person who follows on Patreon but I feel like this is important to get across too, perhaps.

'Wirklichkeit' - is that like 'really reality'? 🤔😆

I reckon if Greta Thunberg wasn't neurodivergent her detractors would claim that she was for bogus reaaons.

Ableism hurts people with disabilities that don't match the popular conceptions of what mental and physical disabilities are, what people with them are capable of and what difficulties are faced. 'Real' disabilities are often subject to ignorant dismissal, too, e.g. 'You don't *look* sick'. 'You need to try harder.' 'Have you tried XYZ spurious treatment?' etc.

It's not just being different from what's usual or expected, it's having distinct difficulties that go along with these conditions. Being a chess player isn't the thing, it's how they approach playing chess, whether they're hyper-focused in a non-neurotypical way, do they have an atypical mental ability to strategise arising from a neurodivergent brain, etc.. It's like asking if people who drive cars are neurodivergent. Does each person's brain, behavioral traits and perception stem from a neurotypical brain or a neurodivergent one?

Although many neurodivergent people well know we need therapy and/or medication and very likely a good hard look at how we act, interact and react and to work on necessary and desired adjustments to function better since so many facets of life can be negatively impacted. We often have to learn to advocate for ourselves, and each other.

People are often quick to apply labels to any behavior they find divergent. Often it is the wrong label. Are people who play chess neuro-divergent?

Albrecht, I understand what you mean. I think that psychiatrists have dug themselves a hole with their terminology and I expect (or at least hope) there will be another terminology change in the future. The DSM defines a "disorder" by "dysfunction" but then some of their "disorders" also include "functional" people while at the same time claiming that this is a terminology that shouldn't be used. It makes zero sense.

Yes, that is what I mean. Sabine said: “Fast forward 70 years and psychologists decided that there is no clear distinction between Asperger’s syndrome and autism and the term “high functioning autism” is neither useful nor descriptive. … This is why the term Asperger’s syndrome is no longer in use today. ... Why Elon Musk referred to a retired expression like Asperger’s is anyone’s guess, maybe he spends too much time with this old-people app called twitter.” I think we should not overlook that “Asperger’s syndrome” includes outstanding abilities, and this is highly different from the normal meaning of autism which mostly describes persons who are unable to even live a self-contained life. It is always possible to cover a range of symptoms by a very general notion like here ASD; but does this help us to have a better description and a better understanding? I guess it does not.

These people, hair splitters and extremists, make a lot of trouble about nothing and without solving problems, you meet them everywhere. It's just blabla and self promotion.

Before one defines a desease, one should ask, is it a desease. The best is to look, if someone, the affected or the environment, suffers from symptoms. Otherwise it's not useful to claim a desease. In this sense, Einstein or Musk have no desease, to search a definition for.

Good discussion. Regarding terminology. I suppose there is a point to concern over terms, such as 'diverse' versus 'disorder', as there exists a spectrum with the largest grouping being 'typical' under the bell curve and 'disorder' being the lower functioning tail. But there is the point that there is disfunction, that whatever it is gets in the way of 'normal' interactions and that makes it a disorder and that something is wrong with them, although not their fault. The problem may be in splitting that hair, where in the spectrum of human brain development one has a problem versus not. This is an issue for many things, such as disabilities. I had a cat who was abandoned because he had malformed rear legs. One could say that he was 'disabled'. However, he got around and so we joked that he was 'diff-abled', as in differently abled, he knew no difference and so walked on his front legs. I understand the concern, but there does exist a point when there is no ability and the problem is that the extremist wing refuses to accept that there is a point that their neuro-divergent people can't function without help. We need to be rational even though others refuse to. This doesn't equate to eugenics, it is reality.

Michiel Peeraer

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58537332-the-myth-of-normal "Over four decades of clinical experience, Maté has come to recognize the prevailing understanding of “normal” as false, neglecting the roles that trauma and stress, and the pressures of modern-day living, exert on our bodies and our minds at the expense of good health."

Michiel Peeraer

https://youtu.be/ssIZe1I0tzk?t=123 Nowadays Asperger is ASS : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_of_Asperger_syndrome#DSM-5_changes "A meta-analysis of 14 studies published The Columbia University school of nursing in early 2014 showed that there was a pooled 30% decrease in Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnoses following the publication of the DSM 5.[34]"

At last, I want to recommend very much a book, written by the swiss perception psychologist Felicie Affolter: "Perception, Reality and Language" (originally german: "Wahrnehmung, Wirklichkeit und Sprache"). Like "Existential Physics', it's a book, that everyone should read, and that I won't miss in my life.

I like to make a simpler comment to this discussion. I do not feel it adequate to put the state ‘Asperger’ into the normal range of a more or less severe autism. Because ‘Asperger’ means additional features than just saying: it is the handicap of autism but of a minor degree. Would you really say that the examples of Einstein and Musk are nothing else than persons with autism but of a minor degree? What about their additional abilities which are not in the range of others? One little example which I assign to ‘Asperger’ and which I personally know: A student has to pass a test in mathematics. He has to solve a certain problem. At the first glance he is confused because he has no idea how to solve it. Then after a moment he can see the solution and succeeds. When he is later asked how he found this solution, he is not able to answer it. This is an ability which I would call ‘Asperger’. Would you really say that this is nothing else than autism of a minor degree?

A precise and very empathetic overview. Being one of those "care givers of level one til three people", let me add some points about autism: In practice we still differentiate between a deep "classical " autism and ASD. It's important for the application of help. The deep 'classical' autism is dominated by the 'key' symptom: the inability to percept feelings, sensations, etc., by 'reading' face expression, pitch, body language etc. of other humans, and therefore the inability to express the own ones. The diagnosis is independent of IQ, that differentiates a lot between Kanner's and Asperger's syndrome, high and low functional, and is independent of the concomitant symptoms, that might or might not be added. ASD is dominated by the concomitant symptoms (motor dysfunctions, speech disorder, focussing on special interests, mental disability, etc.), that can all, or partly be present. A program to teach them life capabilities is called TEACCH, an acronym of course. The 'key' symptom is similar to our inability to speak or understand an unknown language. The 'high functional' affected people can learn to interact quite 'normal' by learning it like a new language (or math terminology?). So one can call it 'masking'. But even those ones are cut off the real sharing of feelings with other humans, society stays strange and weird. It's a deep lack in the functions of the brain (theory of mind). I'm sure that neither Elon nor Sabine is affected, but a good example in publicity is Greta Thunberg. So that thing about neurodiversity is easy to clear up: Give people the help, they need, don't burn ressources in an ideological fight about words, and treat people, who are able to manage their lifes very well, respectfully as the worthy, valuable human beings, they are. If I notice, how Greta is treated in the press, medias, publicity by all these journalists and politicians, talking about "that silly little autistic girl" because they don't like her courage, there would be a starting point to stop the discrimination.

Thanks for trying to do science, and for trying not to let all the ideological heat get in the way of the scientific light. A few thoughts that may help on this: "Normal" exists as a scientific category, referring to a strongly primary frequency in a distribution pattern. It is distinct from "normative", as we know from the Is-Ought distinction. Normative requires a separate judgment. Normal however informs what people are likely to presuppose normative, for better or worse. Separate thinking and judgment on the merits of any particular normality or abnormality is needed to evaluate whether this “prejudice” is a sound prejudice or an unsound one. For Hume, the normal informs -- and nature informs -- what is worth considering for giving it a normative status. This, presumably for evolutionary reasons. Evolved traits, both physical and social, tend to be serviceable to important functions. But that does not mean that all deviations from it are presumptively bad. Extreme high intelligence is considered positive and normative, despite being abnormal. Its infrequency is due, not to being harmful, to the cost it would have given the biological organism to make it normal thousands of years ago, costs greater than the benefits at the time. We are constantly at work on repairing this limitation of our biology, through science, education, and possible future mental implants. "Abnormal" properly means an abnormality on the distribution pattern; it is not necessarily bad. Einstein was abnormally intelligent. So are you, by the way. They used to tell me I was too, before I started using it to correct them on stupid mistakes and not fit in often enough with whatever nonsense everyone was saying. That might count as being on the spectrum today. I would caution you only against trying too hard to mask it and fit in. This maybe is in play when you’re cracking jokes that fit in too much with the regnant snobberies, like ridiculing the very people who are being designated publicly as the ones who are to be laughed at, put down, deplored, or excluded. It is a social behavior, and one antithetical to scientific evaluation. I do think your choice of victims to ridicule in you telephone routine sometimes gets into this problem area. Abnormally high intelligence does have some social correlates that are considered negative, i.e. normatively bad. Many of them correlate also to symptoms counted on the autism spectrum. That negative judgment is mostly a sound prejudice – about those correlates, not the intelligence itself, which is still counted prejudicially as good. Abnormality, like normality itself, is something worth examining to see whether to count it as normatively bad or good. Autism is not made “normal”, merely because it is within a natural range of variation. It is an abnormality. It is normal to have abnormalities; everyone has abnormalities, neurological, genetic, and otherwise. Perhaps one can say that autism is within “the normal range of abnormalities”. One can say that also about sex and gender variances; about many neurological variances; about other kinds of physiological and psychological variances. And can wonder whether to classify neurological variances as physical or psychological, or both. Autism is, in itself, probably on balance harmful socially and personally. Of course it has compensatory advantages; so does every abnormality. An objective view of those advantages is not likely to change the overall evaluation in this case. That is the same with many other abnormalities. Many are rightly judged negative, i.e. contrary to what society ought to treat as normative. Sometimes the judgment is wrong; that’s why reviewing these assumptions is appropriate. But not inverting them, out of a prejudice against all prejudices. A prejudice against all prejudices, no matter whether sound or unsound, is itself an unsound prejudice. This does not mean that society should not in many cases modify its stigmas and try to make life better not worse for those who suffer from these abnormalities. And yes, in most cases, those with the abnormalities do suffer from the abnormalities themselves, not just the stigmas that have been attached to them. Nodifying or even totally removing the stigma doesn’t make it all better, when abnormalities have inherently negative consequences; nor remove the need for such treatment as can be properly provided for the abnormality itself. Stigmatizing reasonable treatments can be even more harmful than stigmatizing the condition. Most people don’t want conditions that are harmful to themselves or to their social relations. It doesn’t help to pump them up ideologically and be proud of their “difference”. They would rather be able to access treatments that work, when such exist. That is true for a load of abnormalities, not just autism. “Able-ism” has sound reasons for it in most cases. The prejudice against it, and the labeling it as a deplorable “ism”, is an unsound prejudice. It may be what is counted these days as “social justice”, but it is a terrible injustice to those who suffer from real disabilities.

Yes. We need to remove the definition of pathology as being "a continuous trait that is more than a standard deviation away from the mean", and replace it with "a trait that causes harm to the individual having it or to those they interact with". And then we can productively think of cures and therapies, which can range from social acceptance and pre-emptive adjustment to particulars, to eugenics (just kidding), to surgery and drugs. And in all this we need to consider the fact that resources are finite, and there might be a better use of resources than expensive surgeries or drugs, especially if the latter don't improve the symptoms much. But we also need to consider that there might be beneficial aspects to the pathology as well, to both the individual and to the groups that they are part of, e.g. great scientific minds.


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