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Has Physics Ruled out Free Will

🕑 Added 2023-06-03 12:00:03 +0000 UTC
Has Physics Ruled out Free Will

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You're welcome! Did the link above not work - that book should be in German, it might be easier. But maybe it didn't translate well?

thanks again, I´m looking forward, have ordered it on amazon

That´s surely compatible with Sabine, so she says in her book

I have to believe in free will.

Hi Thomas, here is a link to the epub translation of the book in German. I can also share a link to the PDF file if the epub doesn't turn out to be convenient to read. http://gofile.me/75xf6/uEFdtx5s1 . I used Google Translate, I hope the quality will be ok.

At first I found Schopenhauer depressing, too. But I believe that when we believe something that is untrue, we expose ourselves to a greater risk of suffering. When we find something that fits reality better, there is less conflict, and I find relief there.

Andrew, I responded to Sabine, about BCs. Please see my response

Merci pour votre attention, living near Aachen not far from France, my french should be better, but, poorly, it's even worse than my english. Most scientific literature is english, Sabine too, wrote her books in english, german versions are translations. I'll get an english version of your book on amazon, and improve my language knowledge by the way. Send you a feedback, though Schopenhauer is somewhat depressing for me. À bientôt

Hi Thomas, unfortunately not. I've made a French version, being French myself. (I originally wrote it in English). For the French version, I used Google translate and made a few corrections here and there, that was the most efficient. I will do the same in German and send it to you (minus the few corrections as my German is very poor). I'll do that next week, I should have some time then. Also, FYI, the English I used is as simple as possible, this is be design, but it is difficult to explain why in a few words.

Hello Nicolas, just looked your book on amazon, interesting, but my english is a bit patchy. Is a german translation available?

Hi Sabine, "no one knows what role quantum effects play in the human brain" - but isn't there something like a 'scale separation' (learned that term from your book) between quantum effects and neurological processes?

I was not aware of Norton's Dome until your comment, but I don't think that is what I meant, though maybe it is an example (contrived, I agree). I can't remember any references for where I got the idea that "there are issues with boundary conditions". Maybe I willed it freely out of thin air ;-). Or maybe it's a mishmash of different ideas, like the idea that one way emergence happens is through certain irreducible constraints (e.g. boundary conditions), and the idea that action optimization equations (Euler Lagrange for classical particles and fields, geodesic for classical particles in GR without non-gravitational forces--which is also an EL equation optimizing the particle's action \integral{mc^2 d[proper time]} over all possible paths-- and also EL for quantum particle wave functions) usually assume some simple boundary conditions, like the field and its derivatives are zero, or some property of a particle (such as position or momentum) is known precisely at the start and end of the path (the latter is not really a problem as one can convolve over all starting properties if they are given by probabilities, or mysterious amplitudes). What if the boundary conditions are not able to be decoupled from the motion of the particle or field, and we need to solve for them in tandem with the EL equations? This also brings up a pet peeve of mine: the fundamental reason for action optimization comes from the Feynman path integral picture. In summary, the quantum picture legitimizes the optimization of the action for particles (because of cancellation of complex number amplitudes more than a few hs from the optimum path. There is a similar rationale for fields). But now this action optimization happens for Dirac or Schrodinger wave functions. It can't be the same rationale because these fields are not classical. Giving this absurdity a name (second quantization) does not solve the problem.

That's right :o)

Can't quite decide whether to be flattered or insulted ;)

Yes that's right. But all this would do is give you a mixture of determinism and indeterminism again, so doesn't really change much about the free will discussion.

Iuval, do you mean Norton's Dome? I've always found that example extremely contrived.

The question exactly what part of your decisions is determined by what is very difficult to answer because no one knows what role quantum effects play in the human brain.

Hi Andrew, as Iuval says, the randomness comes from the supposed collapse of the wavefunction. Now, it's not much of a secret that I don't think it's a real physical process, but then again that's somewhat speculative. If you take quantum mechanics as it is, then it's not deterministic.

I agree, it sound like an oxymoron in the first place.

Torte = a layer cake whereas Tort = an action that causes another injury or other harm 🙂

Well, actually they do affect it: The sum of all those little ripples is the flow...

Here is my take on why I believe that the current belief in free will is harmful globally - https://www.amazon.com/Building-Peace-engineers-journey-into/dp/1686174543 . I can send the pdf/epub to those who are interested, I'm not doing this for the money :)

Here is a discussion about free will with Denis Noble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCLRKP9NW8I. A nice coincidence in timing and it's worth a viewing.

"And since the real world is governed by a mixture of determinism and indeterminism, I arrive at the conclusion that free will doesn’t exist." I agree with all what you say. But I think that you can condense the arguments of your statement above: determinism and indeterminism are complementary facts, they cover all what is logically possible.

Our neurons don't enact quantum events, so our choices are not "quantum jumps", nor do they lead to many-world splits. Actually, there are huge numbers of quantum events in the chemistry of neural action, but they don't affect the outcomes, any more than all the little ripples in a river affect its overall flow.

“Captain Pike has an illusion, and you have reality. May you find your way as pleasant.”.

The view you’ve outlined here and what one reads about many-worlds theories seem to present two extremes of the balance between choice and determinism. Is this a matter of emphasis or a significant real difference? At least rhetorically, the many-worlds view is explained as saying that every choice or decision we make splits off new universes / selects a universe. If quantum jumps are just occasional, then the rest of the time we make choices or decisions that are determined. Would many-worlds theories say that those determined decisions don’t result in a splitting off or selecting a world from the multiverse, just the special quantum measurements?

I see... But quantum fluctuations are results of some physical process that is governed by, Dirac equation, which is a deterministic equation. So if we accept that the quantum fluctuations are physical and they are governed by some deterministic equation then what would prevent us to go back up to the Big Bang?

Hi Andrew, that was my question too, but now, as I understood, they were determined a bit later, after the quantum fluctuations did not dominate the universe anymore, not sure when, perhaps ten minutes after? But that doesn't solve my problem with the credibility of determinism in such a maximum predictable way, although I know, it's physically correct.

Well, there are some cultures, faiths, that deny 'free will' but being partly dominating, think of fate-belief or predestination. Is your book about Schopenhauer available?

I agree. But I think the belief in free will causes more harm than it helps today. It causes feelings of guilt, people judge, they feel bad when they fail, as if they could have willed themselves to be geniuses... and there are no grounds for judging anything, we aren't gods. I understand it seems to have been necessary for cultures to develop, but I am not sure it still is necessary. I am not sure that a majority can be convinced it doesn't exist, either.

Einstein mentioned Schopenhauer's quote to sum it up and I never need more: "men do what they will, but they can't will what they will". I've spent a lot of time trying to explain this to others, I've even written a book about it, but I can never convince anyone. It is a cultural belief. I believe that believing in free will causes more pain than not believing in it, simply because it doesn't exist. I have been trying to figure out the cognitive reasons why the cultures that believed in free will became dominant (if there ever were other cultures that didn't believe in free will, which I doubt).. but nothing related to the brain and cognition is easy. I haven't given up yet. In the meantime, go Sabine!

I don't accept that quantum mechanics has anything to say about consciousness. I also don't think that determinism has anything to say about free will. I also don't place any weight on any philosophical system. I posit that consciousness is simply an evolved arbiter over the sensory subsystems. They accept environmental input and generate a response, such as a photon striking a photoreceptor on a cell membrane that triggers the expression of proteins that drive cilia until no photons are received. This simple, chemical system works well in single-celled organisms, which also have evolved algorithms that can change default behaviors, learning as AI does, but not complex enough for multi-celled animals. In multi-cellular living things there has evolved a cellular network, the brain, to deal with each subsystem and to varying degrees, consciousness to arbitrate those responses, such as stopping to evaluate a situation to adjust the response. Free will is that assessment and choice of action.

Then, what was it that determined your decision?

Haha, is torte an english term?

Sabine convinced me with to strong arguments, first, there're of course no alternative futures in front of our way, between which we can choose, second, clearly a decision, ruled by total randomness isn't a decision. But anyway, I have the impression, that there's a fundamental difference between the way, humans make a decision, and animals (even the most intelligent ones) do. Being emergent to the deterministic laws, that work in the brains, the difference might be the reason, why we feel 'Free Will'.

I initially read the manuscript before seeing the video so had to watch it later to see what was up with the FIFA ball thing. Think it is a stretch to say that looks like hand to face. Still mainly looks to me like 3 hands on the ball. When this old guy grew up, the word math was NEVER plural (i.e. maths) Even spell check here doesn't like it! This whole free will topic/issue seems to be an issue of concern for me lately. Perhaps the way to best look at it is to say we are a conscious unit of the unfolding universe and not having free will as Sabine implies it.

"Free Will" turns out to be a terrible term. "Will" isn't free at the first place? For me it works fine, to see freedom as a good feeling, like hope or love. What does it matter, if there is no "strong emergence" behind it? It happily feels real anyway.

Hi Tracey, totally agree, your first point is a razor-sharp analysis of all the many people, who want to own total freedom under a prison-guardian's shelter. We both discuss your last question in an alternative future, me as a mail carrier and you as a dog walker.

So the decision, that I drank my morning coffee from the blue, instead of the red cup was not determined in the first three minutes after the BigBang? I'm happy about that.

My incoherent thoughts.... 1. Not being religious, I was never indoctrinated into any dubious moral arguments and I have never thought deeply about the concept of "free will". I am always amused when "believers" assert that things are a part of (insert favorite deity)'s plan and then also assert "free will" -- make up your mind! I'm also amused when a deity saves someone from a tornado that the deity sent, presumably because of "the gays", or something like that. 2. Without a formal, agreed-upon definition of "free will", it seems that so many people are arguing past each other. 3. The physics side of my brain agrees completely with Sabine's analysis despite my strong internal sense of having "free will" (under any definition thereof). I guess this means that I am for hard incompatibilism with a good dose of strong cognitive dissonance. 4. The post office required several of us to install mailboxes on the street rather than having the mail carrier get out of his little truck to walk the mail up to the boxes on our houses. I just noticed that all the dog walkers now have to stop repeatedly at every house along the street. Wait...this has nothing to do with "free will"... or does it....

The statistician George Box wrote that "all models are wrong but some models are useful." Perhaps we should consider free will as a a sort of scientific model which should be judged by its usefulness rather than its strict adherence to the truth. For those of us who are neither physicists nor philosophers, belief in free will may be a useful model that points the best way toward a happy and productive life. Similarly a belief in God may be a useful model in our effort to achieve a more happy and productive life; whether that model is correct is less important.

Have you seen The Matrix? There are a lot people thinking like Neo. They feel disgusting not being in control of their own life. But there are more like Cipher: ignorance is bliss.

Sabine says that she assumes randomness exists, because it does not alter the outcome of the reasoning she does, but I doubt she believes randomness is real, let's say, ontological. What Einstein said? God is not randomness? Everything is super determined since the Big Bang, isn't it? That does not mean you can cross the street without looking first! But relax and watch nice things, not horror movies you can't unsee. You have few control of what happens to you, but even if an illusion, choose wisely what it seems you can choose. Maybe this illusion is an example of "strong emergence"...

I find it similar to the OSI model of communications. You do not need the physical layer to define the network layer, e.g. the IP protocol, routing, DNS... but you need a physical layer reality to communicate, always. A colleague, a radio frequency engineer, used to say that above radio waves, you are at the psychological level of communication systems.

Sabine, I disagree completely… you are a philosopher at heart and a pretty good one at that :)

Good argumentative structure in this, but some slippery assumptions in the interstices. Maybe even leaps in logic there. The fact that quantum fluctuations are random thus far in our measurements does not mean that there is never anything that influences some of them - say, fluctuations inside our brain that are hardly possible at this stage for us to be measuring.

Hi Iuval, thanks for the reaction. I'm not concerned with the collapse since if you subscribe to superdeterminism, as I do, it becomes a modelling related question: the universe doesn't care what an observer measures, it all happens as part of the dynamics. On the other hand I would like to know more about the issues related to the boundary/initial conditions. Could you please point me towards some related material? Thanks!

There might be other paths to randomness besides deterministic chaos and "built-in" quantum mysteriousness. For example, it could turn out that the differential equations of the universe have non-linear time derivatives. Or that singularities in GR are real and deterministic equations break down around them, or that because the singularities are dressed, we can't in principle know what is inside the horizons so in practice we can describe it with probabilities. But that is not the issue with free will. The issue is that people who are not on the spectrum usually do better feeling like they have some agency (there is psychological data to support this, see examples in Jonathan Haidt's The Happiness Hypothesis). And also, our whole legal system and morality is built on the assumption that people have agency and could have chosen something different.

the randomness comes from collapse of wavefunctions. We can only give probabilities to how that happens, there is no deterministic equations for it. The deterministic equations are for the wavefunctions themselves. But there are also issues with boundary conditions that Sabine hasn't mentioned.

CHAOSTORTE UNIVERSUM

As Sabine mentioned, so many properties are emergent. It's as if Reality is a giant Schichttorte with alternating layers of order and disorder as you zoom up or down through the different scales. I'd love to see a video on this aspect of science. Does it even have a name - or is it the just the 'space between all of the disciplines'? ;O)

Hi Sabine, Great video, as always. I was with you up to the Big Bang and was again with you after that. Quantum fluctuation? Wouldn't that be governed by physical laws, too? Why don't we start with an initial condition (Big Bang or whatever we had there) and then let the dynamics be taken care of by the deterministic physical laws? What would be the source of randomness that would give rise to quantum fluctuation?

I fully agree. The only thing what I do not understand is why there is still so much debate about this.


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