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How the Greenhouse Effect Really Works

🕑 Added 2023-02-04 13:00:03 +0000 UTC
How the Greenhouse Effect Really Works

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Sabine, that was a very good, succinct discussion. I took David Archer's coursera.com course 'Global Warming I: The Science and Modeling of Climate Change' (https://www.coursera.org/learn/global-warming) and you covered it. Just a few side issues about deniers. 1. Most global warming deniers point out that now we use the term 'climate change' that somehow changes the discussion. It makes sense to them. 2. They claim that 'climate is always changing', which is wrong as the climate changes when there is a change in the energy of the system and it doesn't change over a long period when things are relatively constant as we've experienced essentially since the end of the last ice age. The range of stability has smoothed out short term changes, such as volcanic eruptions that caused regional cooling, such as the Little Ice Age. 3. They love to bring up the point that water vapor is a strong GHG that to them implies that CO2 is somehow irrelevant. That makes sense to them. They don't seem to understand that water vapor is controlled by temperature, it condenses, whereas CO2, CH4 et al are noncondensing. 4. They bring up the point that CO2 is a 'plant food' and so they argue that plants will grow faster and better, but they don't consider point 5. 5. Climate change has changed the weather patterns that life has evolved in and those changes changes are driving ecosystem shifts that evolution can't accommodate, including agriculture, due to human overpopulation. Wildlife has no where to migrate to, neither does our agriculture.

I kind of feel that science educators are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation sometimes. I see students go glassy-eyed after "The gree..." and they're already gone. Anything beyond a super simple, superficial explanation loses so many people. But then, those that are smart and interested are left trying to figure out the messy details by themselves -- and the messy details are complicated, as so many people commented on YouTube and elsewhere.

I'm a bit pissed-off that apparently nobody else bar Sabine has made an effort to explain the entire phenomenon of the Greenhouse Effect in a way that's anywhere near comprehensible to the masses.

The difference between an overweight person and the current climate crisis is that one can't assume the well-being levels of a fat person just by their appearance and that the 'well-being' of the climate degrading and the results are clearly visible even if the mechanisms causing the disruption aren't clear to non-climate scientists.

I figured out that my misunderstanding was not listening closely to the video; Sabine pretty clearly misspoke and implied that the gravity *gradient* played a key role. There's a correction in the video description now. I'm still feeling both smart and stupid, but for different reasons.

OK, but a slightly higher atmospheric temperature also means higher absolute humidity which amplifies the effects of CO2. This piece on the NASA website explian it well. Steamy Relationships: How Atmospheric Water Vapor Amplifies Earth's Greenhouse Effect https://climate.nasa.gov/ask-nasa-climate/3143/steamy-relationships-how-atmospheric-water-vapor-amplifies-earths-greenhouse-effect/ Maybe another video on positive feedback loops like this and changes in planetary albedo?

Rad Antonov

In other words, particle density in a column of air goes something like: e^(-mgh/kT) as fn of h.

Sabine level is clearly above the level of the average population.

Hmmm.... that high school level explanation is well above any high school curriculum I've encountered in the US. Hell, even college level general education science courses (for non-STEM students) just stick with the middle school explanation. The "enhanced greenhouse effect" part of the video was new to me. I had never bothered to delve much deeper into the greenhouse effect before. Thanks for that, Sabine.

Aleksei, correct me if I'm talking out of my ass here, but if we complete your thought -- why is there "less air pushing down"? Because the atmosphere is in hydrostatic equilibrium around a big gravitating ball which results in a pressure gradient, right? Then the pressure gradient results in a density gradient. What am I missing here? Yes, the difference in gravitational force is minimal compared to the difference in gravitational pressure, but still, gravity is at the heart of the effect.

Aleksei Besogonov

Just a note, atmosphere does not become less dense with height because gravity grows less strong. It becomes less dense because there's less air pushing down on it.

Climate change is similar to waistline change. Our weight is determined by the balance of calories in and calories out. What could be simpler? But many of us have noticed that if we eat less, we get hungry (and our metabolism slows down). Also, if we exercise, we get hungry. So what determines appetite? Various hormones, psychological factors, environmental stimuli…hmm, not so simple after all. It’s safe to say that no one fully understands the obesity epidemic. In addition to carbon dioxide, water vapor is an excellent greenhouse gas. What is the effect of increasing carbon dioxide and/or increasing global temperature on water vapor? And is it true that when water vapor condenses into clouds, it reflects more incoming sunlight than the earth’s surface? How well do we understand cloud formation? Although we successfully predicted stratospheric cooling, haven’t nearly all the climate models significantly overestimated tropospheric warming? And how well does our current understanding of the earth’s climate explain the large fluctuations over the prior millions of years? Like the human body, the world’s climate is a marvelously complex but poorly understood mechanism that we should perhaps understand much better… before we spend trillions of dollars that could certainly be used elsewhere.


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