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Genetic Screening: Risks and Benefits

🕑 Added 2023-01-28 13:00:59 +0000 UTC
Genetic Screening: Risks and Benefits

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IMO this is entirely about rights and only beings, things with the capacity for mind, have rights, objects, things with no capacity for mind. The state already uses this criterion in law about dealing with the brain dead. They are relegated to the decisions of their survivors as they can no longer make any decisions nor experience and are therefore no longer beings. The same holds for fetuses. The fetus is a mere object until its brain develops the capacity for consciousness, which according to neuroscientists and embryologists is after week 20, probably week 24 at which time the brain develops the necessary connections between brain subsystems and central nervous system to actually experience. Therefore, see my NOTE above. As for later term abortions, the obstetric nurses I know told me that they are performed only when the fetus is severely malformed and the mother's life is at risk from the pregnancy and vaginal birth. If the baby is well formed, it is delivered via c-section. The "late term abortion" issue is a shibboleth of religious extremists.

Happy Monday! Just to be clear, those women are actually males, as determined by their XY chromosomes, who never had their maleness expressed. According to the article, some can have babies. This makes sense as seen in this article: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aai9136 As embryos, we are not necessarily both M and F, but have both tracts and when sex is determined, one of those tracts is shut down or there is a problem. As for the interview and trans issues in general, true male non-expression is rare, and in my opinion, without having read any valid studies they are due to culture and how any given culture defines NOT sex, but masculine and feminine. In the interview the lesbian noted a change in lesbian culture in which those who would previously have remained lesbian decided to transition to male. All were F, with all femaleness expressed. If our culture had no predetermined expectations of how males and females were to act or about their sexuality, there'd be very few trans.

I'll go further and state that a pregnant person needn't tell anyone that they're pregnant, nor if they get an abortion. I do think that people should be honest about whether they want to have children or not but that's a separate issue. From the medical explanations I've seen, the point that a foetus becomes a baby and thus a seperate person is at birth.

Hi Jeffery, thanks for the information. The people who had atypical gestation are not men who feel like they're female, they're women. Any children who say that they feel female are girls. As for transgender men coming out and transitioning after previously saying that they were lesbians. It could bw because more of those men understand that their experience of life is that they're transgender and not merely homosexual, that more of those men judge that it's in their best interests to transition rather than continue to pretend to be lesbians, that more men now feel *safer* to transition. As complex as the causes of biological development in reproductive anatomy and sex-related characteristics are, the simple truth is that transgender and non-binary people are who and what they say they are, the same as cisgender people.

This is interesting: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/ I knew that we are all female until the male characteristics were expressed, but hadn't read about failure. So there is a valid argument for certain men claiming that they feel like they're female! I listened to a interview that Glenn Greenwald had with a lesbian, I don't recall her name, sorry, who said that she noticed a trend for lesbians to become trans-men when previously it was very rare. Can't find it now, damn.

Regarding abortion at about 3:25: Until the fetus itself develops the capacity for consciousness, it is an object and so the woman has absolute control over it and can has the inalienable right to end the pregnancy without state interference. As for the father, I don't think that he has any power to force his wife to do anything as she is not his property. If they get to that fight, then the marriage is already in trouble. The ONLY control would be when the fetus develops the capacity for mind at which time it becomes a being with rights. NOTE: Dobbs is an unconstitutional as Article III provides no power to the SCOTUS to nullify rights as explained in the Federalist #84. It will be reversed by a future court for that reason.

I've been arguing with pro-life/forced birthers online a lot and there is no argument under the sun that could make me accept that an in-utero pregnancy trumps a pregnant person's reproductive choices, including to avoid having a child with a poor prognosis & because that person doesn't want to have a baby at that time. I also believe that a pregnant person should be supported as well as possible whether they have an abortion or give birth. I would want to select the most robust embryo possible for health & well-being (mental & physical both) as possible but not for other traits. That sounds both noble & kind of eugenicist at the same time. 😕

Ah yes, but see, my poor choices are a result of things beyond my control and I'm doing the best I can while other people's poor choices are because they're stupid. When it comes to car insurance, I'm protecting myself against other people's poor choices because I'm an above average driver and everybody else are idiots. :-) For the record, I agree with you David.

I would not have chosen my child to have characteristics which are 4 or 5 stdevs from the population mean. Maximum 3 stdevs up/better, for well-being. "what genes you pass on to your baby has so far been mostly up to chance" Sure? The babies genes are totally random blends of mum and dad? "What if they want children that are ill, so they qualify for social help?" Well, any doctor doing that is a criminal, besides that the doctor should report parents to authorities for even mentioning it. "Under which circumstances are we to allow that? Should the decision be up to the mother alone? Should the father have a say? What genetic properties should make it permissible to abort a pregnancy?" As a woman, ask yourself, would you allow to be forced by someone else to have a baby you don't want, that you think that you should abort, no matter the reason? Then, everybody: Would you be willing to force any woman to have a baby she does not want? Abortion sounds bad, but forcing women to have babies sounds worse, even.

"the US doesn't have real universal healthcare is that we really don't want to pay for other people's poor choices" Poor choices are done by everybody, so universal insurances are mandatory for driving cars. Healthcare is the same.

Do you smoke? Some time ago I read that men that smoke have more probabilities of having daughters.

There's the rub... We might all agree that the worst genetic issues ought to be selected out, but how long until the line shifts to much more minor issues -- how long until the definition of "defective" is the wrong eye color? What is the role of government and what happens when a tyrannical government imposes selection rules as David B. points out below? One of the reasons that the US doesn't have real universal healthcare is that we really don't want to pay for other people's poor choices -- smoking, diabetes, drug treatment, another baby for a woman already on welfare, etc. It is understandable as a society that we need to provide life-long care to a person with Down's syndrome, for example, because no one is at "fault". However, if genetic diseases can be eliminated, then I could see a big eugenics movement based on people not wanting to provide care for the poor choice of birthing a defective baby -- no tyrannical government needed.

Like, would Sabine be considered defective with her jaw issue & other things? Would I, with my hereditary albeit minor deformities in one hip, my spine & some toes plus a tendency towards depression & other issues that require medications? Asthma? I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone else having those issues however. I would consider the physical issues worth selecting against but preferably before an embryo becomes implanted in the uterus.

D Brown

I believe that in a distant future where mankind continues to hold pissing contests instead of solving population (e.g., hunger) and environmental (e.g., climate) related issues, screening will become commonplace. I could see some countries/tyrants mandating that only those who will become contributing members of society be allowed to enter said society. If the last part sound like some dystopian movie, science fiction sometimes has a way of becoming science fact.

Complicated issue... I agree with all of the commenters on the various forums that having a baby with severe genetic health issues really sucks. But, as the video, and lots of commenters, also point out, the ethics about where to draw the line with genetic selection are murky. Eugenics is here now to some degree for those who can afford IVF but I wonder when the tipping point will come such that all embryos (IVF, or natural -- the technology will come) are genetically tested as part of the standard pregnancy care. Will there be an expectation that all "defective" embryos will be aborted? Will you be considered a bad parent for allowing a "defective" baby to be born?

In the future, humans will all be GMO's. (~;

Aneuploidy: how fitted bedsheets end up being put away.

There's nothing to say a girl would be what you expect. 🙂

Thanks Sabine, I knew next to nothing about this subject until you shared this. Lots of difficult philosophical and ethical dilemmas to sort through, but little doubt that continued progress in this area is inevitable. In the meantime, after having three boys, I'm ready to order a girl for #4 please.

TIN CAN

I decided age 16 to never have children, now age 73. I blame Attila the Hun. I love and prefer my un- adopted daughter. Now age 52. I was beaten, her mother was beaten. The child never! My genetic family are Berserkers'. I stay far away. Duck and Cover....

I don't think there's any way of judging whether intellect affects 'wellbeing' or life satisfaction. We know smart people can believe dumb things and that high intelligence doesn't grant immunity from forming inaccurate, incongruous, and bigoted beliefs. We've genocides, wars and harmful medical, carceral, educational etc. institutions and practices and all the -isms and hateful -phobias to show for that. Also, transgender, intersex and non-binary people reproduce as well so not all parents are mothers, and not all couples are heterosexual. I'm saying this to expand the conversation to beyond the typical assumptions of what families are.


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