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Science News Dec 14

🕑 Added 2022-12-14 16:00:05 +0000 UTC
Science News Dec 14

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Armando Mistral

Prostate, if the aggressive variety.

Rad, I don't know what Harry and Stephon have told journalists recently that you might be referring to so I can't answer the question. My motivation is simple: I want the foundations of physics to advance. The people in the community who you say I am "throwing under the bus" are doing nothing to improve the situation, so they are part of the problem. If you can think of a better way to improve the current situation, then please let me know. This is not a cynical or rhetorical request. I have thought about this long and hard. I do not write such pieces because I like to attract anger and hostility. I do it because it is the only way I can see to get those people to change their ways so that we finally see progress.

Rad Antonov

So are Harry and Stephon not telling the truth to journalists? Do you see my point now? I am questioning your motivation, not expertise. When you throw an entire community under the bus, you are not just tarnishing those writing the pointless publish or perish papers, but also the much larger contingent of scientists who may be trying to improve the precision of a measurement or find a discrepancy between theory and experiment, all in the hope that they can advance our understanding of nature. How does your editorial help them? Ultimately, it is called PARTICLE physics, so it is kinda their job to look for new particles. This is not religion, no one has to believe anything one way or the other. An idea isn't accepted as correct until there is less than 1 in 3.5 mm chance of it being wrong. If you think that's a pointless activity that will never teach us anything new, fine. I'll take the other side of that.

Hi Rad, It is interesting that you think I am "disparaging" someone by drawing attention to what is happening. I know both Harry and Stephon and I have had a brief (alas rather uninsightful interaction with Lockyer). I am familiar with Cvetic's work. I'm not sure why you are asking though. Were you attempting to question my expertise? Look, it is undeniably the case that particle physicists -- theorists and experimentalists alike -- are writing a lot of papers about new particles which no one ever finds. What do you think why that is? Do they believe these things exist? Or do they not believe they exist?

Rad Antonov

They? Do you really not see the problem with disparaging people as a group? Have you spoken with every single particle physicist to know she or he is not telling the truth? For example, is Harry Cliff a liar? On a side note, Harry's heartfelt narration of his recent book can't help but make you cheer for the guy and the success of his team. What did Stephon Alexander, a string theorist with some wild ideas who was shunned as a postdoc because of the color of his skin, say he believes? At a minimum, you must have spoken with Nigel Lockyer, former director of Fermilab, Robin Erbacher of the CMS collaboration and Miriam Cvetic, a high energy theorist and editor of a journal where some of your research on quantum gravity was published. Generalizing is a slippery slope that leads to extremes like calling all people south of the border criminals or invading Ukraine because everyone there is a Nazi. What I do agree with is that particle physics is in a crisis. It's a big budget enterprise that is no longer producing big time discoveries. Downsizing is painful and redirecting the research effort requires leadership. There are no doubt members of that community with proclivity to push those silly papers to justify their grants. Call them out by name. Or the dead wood tenured faculty that need to go to make room for the next generation, light 'em up. But antagonizing a community as a whole doesn't help it solve its problems. It only emboldens its haters.

Well, they either believe in particles that don't exist, or they search for particles that they don't believe exist. I actually think that the way I have portrayed them is the more favorable one. And I do as a matter of fact doubt their integrity and motivation. Because I know they are not telling to truth to journalists. I was for this reason indeed worried that the same is going on in climate science. But having had some interaction with climate scientists over the years I can tell you that the social dynamics in the community is completely different. Be that as it may, I hope we agree that particle physicists have some explaining to do as to why they keep publishing these papers and looking for those things, whatever their motivation?

Rad Antonov

Science populism, not pseudoscience. It’s about casting unsubstantiated doubt on the integrity and motivations of a community of scientists. In this instance, they happen to be particle physicists, but you could imagine someone painting climatologists or geneticists or whoever with the same broad strokes brush of questionable character. Do we want the type of populist rhetoric that is often used against segments of society for political gain to also rear its ugly head against scientists? It’s not to say there aren’t unscrupulous ones or bad science, but we judge each one individually, on their merits, not as a single class of villains.

Here is the editorial that Dan Hooper in "Why This Universe" references: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/26/physics-particles-physicists Dan Hooper isn't calling out Sabine for pseudoscience but for undermining the public's trust in science by presenting misinformation (at ~9:55) that "In private, many physicists admit they do not believe the particles they are paid to search for exist – they do it because their colleagues are doing it." The question is whether this is in fact misinformation. Dan states that she's just wrong and admits that we can't verify that claim either as we are not insiders. Sabine was an insider and so did hear what other physicists had to say. The problem with her editorial appears to be that she didn't provide names of physicists who actually stated to her that they felt that way, but Dan also doesn't provide a list of names of those that believe that the particles that they are searching for exist. But that physicists believe something isn't necessarily a valid argument for the continuation of any given line of research that has not provided any valid results. He uses the example of the conjecture of the neutron in 1920 and its discovery in 1932 as an example of belief leading to proof, but is that a good example? In this case, the nucleus was a reality and so continuing to look for what made up a nucleus was rational. But is this really the same as believing in supersymmetry that leads to looking for particles that depend on something that itself has little to no evidence? Which brings me to this article: https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-status-of-supersymmetry This essentially supports Sabine's claim: "As segments of the particle physics community have drifted away from supersymmetry, many experimentalists remain optimistic." But it doesn't provide a list of names either. So, here we are.

I would like to see/hear what Sabine would say as her rebuttal, not that I expect her to respond to the accusation of pseudoscience. 😬

Rad Antonov

Interesting, thanks. On a related note, Hannah Fry, an accomplished mathematician and author recently shared her cancer experience and perspective with the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct3k4q

Please, note that early detection of most cancers is useless. It will make your life miserable and it will not make you live longer. Notable exceptions are lung, cervical and colon cancers. https://www.nature.com/articles/528322a

Rad Antonov

Since colliders get no love here, it’s only right and proper that we at least hear what those pesky particle physicists have to say about becoming the preferred piñata on this channel. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-this-universe/id1523312400?i=1000589895657


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